Why USA is Better Than Chile
Shame on you. You're already thinking I'm a chauvinistic fuck but by the time this post is done you'll weep for forgiveness. "How could I have sided against West African immigrants" you'll cry. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Oldie but goody, the NY Times reports how a $3 million class action settlement was awarded to exploited immigrant grocery delivery workers in New York City. Some of them got US $30,000.
1. In 2000, when the settlement was awarded, class action lawsuits didn't exist in Chile.
2. A wage of $2/hr was inarguably a case of abusive exploitation in United States. A wage of $2/hr is fucking normal to this day in Chile. But what about the lower cost of living in Chile, you might whine. Shut up. It is exploitative. Santiago, Chile is the most expensive city in Latin America.
So now class action lawsuits are legal in Chile, like divorce, those are improvements dating back no more than 2-3 years or something pathetically recent like that. Some things are getting better in Chile, but way too slowly. And again, it is fucking normal for people to earn less than $2/hour, and that's legal, contracted work.
Not to mention a huge swath of the population that work without contracts.
Plus the concept of "overtime" is essentially nonexistent in the Chilean workplace. You don't get paid extra, if at all, for the extra hours you put in.
So this chauvinistic fuck says USA is better than Chile, but go ahead and tell me Chile is A-Okay. Tell me, like Clare does, how-dare-you call Chile third world "Chile isn't third world!". If that's your stance, then you're siding with the oppressors. You would rather be a grossly misdirected Berkeley lib and cry foul the second anyone breathes a word of criticism against our poor, defenseless neighbors too the south. But guess what. Your White Guilt only serves the interests of the White Oppressors, the ruling classes of the South.
Stand with me on the side of the poor and oppressed. I know what I'm talking about.
In Santa Cruz, CA in my last year of college was part of a volunteer effort by the Western Service Workers Association that saved a dirt-poor Mexican immigrant couple, coincidentally, about US$30,000. I followed a paper trail that revealed an illegal 3rd party sell-off to bypass price control on the couple's trailer home. Other team members confronted the seller and she buckled immediately, agreed in writing not to press for further payments: victory.
It's not that anglos are any more or less thieving and exploitative than latins. Regardless of race, people just ain't no good. The WSWA was all about scratching the surface and everywhere you look the government or whoever wields some economic power is basically up to no good. This is in the First World. But what makes it First World, in my book, is that you can not only scratch the surface but you can advocate and fight and half the time win, you just gotta put some elbow grease into it.
In Chile, I just don't see that shit happening. I would love to see it happen. Maybe it is and I'm just not noticing. So let's open up the forum and talk about advances, even if they're not glamorous like $30,000. Celebrate victory and encourage more of it. Make me optimistic.
Oldie but goody, the NY Times reports how a $3 million class action settlement was awarded to exploited immigrant grocery delivery workers in New York City. Some of them got US $30,000.
1. In 2000, when the settlement was awarded, class action lawsuits didn't exist in Chile.
2. A wage of $2/hr was inarguably a case of abusive exploitation in United States. A wage of $2/hr is fucking normal to this day in Chile. But what about the lower cost of living in Chile, you might whine. Shut up. It is exploitative. Santiago, Chile is the most expensive city in Latin America.
So now class action lawsuits are legal in Chile, like divorce, those are improvements dating back no more than 2-3 years or something pathetically recent like that. Some things are getting better in Chile, but way too slowly. And again, it is fucking normal for people to earn less than $2/hour, and that's legal, contracted work.
Not to mention a huge swath of the population that work without contracts.
Plus the concept of "overtime" is essentially nonexistent in the Chilean workplace. You don't get paid extra, if at all, for the extra hours you put in.
So this chauvinistic fuck says USA is better than Chile, but go ahead and tell me Chile is A-Okay. Tell me, like Clare does, how-dare-you call Chile third world "Chile isn't third world!". If that's your stance, then you're siding with the oppressors. You would rather be a grossly misdirected Berkeley lib and cry foul the second anyone breathes a word of criticism against our poor, defenseless neighbors too the south. But guess what. Your White Guilt only serves the interests of the White Oppressors, the ruling classes of the South.
Stand with me on the side of the poor and oppressed. I know what I'm talking about.
In Santa Cruz, CA in my last year of college was part of a volunteer effort by the Western Service Workers Association that saved a dirt-poor Mexican immigrant couple, coincidentally, about US$30,000. I followed a paper trail that revealed an illegal 3rd party sell-off to bypass price control on the couple's trailer home. Other team members confronted the seller and she buckled immediately, agreed in writing not to press for further payments: victory.
It's not that anglos are any more or less thieving and exploitative than latins. Regardless of race, people just ain't no good. The WSWA was all about scratching the surface and everywhere you look the government or whoever wields some economic power is basically up to no good. This is in the First World. But what makes it First World, in my book, is that you can not only scratch the surface but you can advocate and fight and half the time win, you just gotta put some elbow grease into it.
In Chile, I just don't see that shit happening. I would love to see it happen. Maybe it is and I'm just not noticing. So let's open up the forum and talk about advances, even if they're not glamorous like $30,000. Celebrate victory and encourage more of it. Make me optimistic.
posted by Chileno @ 12:08 AM
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I basically agree with you. But in Chile the ruling class is half-exploiting people. In the US, black slaves were exploited, literally. After years of cheap labour and free work from blacks, the American economy developed. After the slaves gave it a head start.
A fairer comparison would be the US vs, say, Sweden.
Other details. We have now and before atheists/agnostic presidents. Can you imagine an atheist president of the United States?
You guys do have a serious problem with those jesus freaks, just like we do with the fucken catholics. But don't worry, we'll sort it out soon (I hope).
Now if you say us Chileans are a miserable crowd I wouldn't challenge that.
hmmm. I figured it would be worth leaving my email reading your blog to come directly to it to share this:
"The Best Presentation You've Ever Seen"
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92
its about the world, but with stats that have never before been presented the way they have here.
And also its about debunking myths about the "third world." yes. thats right. I put it in quotes.
Chile makes an interesting appearance. Enjoy.
Slavery takes many forms. Those West Africans who won the $3 million dollar settlement were, literally, being exploited. Earning $2/hr is, literally, exploitation. Happens in both Chile and USA. The difference is that people in the USA have access to legal recourse, whereas in Chile there's much less access.
I give a flying fuck if Chile elects a woman atheist to present to the world, white-washing its own internal problems. US has a Jesus freak in office, but women in the US can get abortions and more forms of birth control much more easily. Overall, USA is a much more liberated society. That's an indisputable fact.
And yes, a much happier society too (pretty much any country is happier than Chile).
PsychoBitchExGirlfriend, whichever you are, I dumped you because you can't show me anything new. That video's been on queue for weeks to blog about, I saw it ages ago. It's a great video actually and when I blog about it I'm going to show how its content bitch-slaps Clare because she's the one who came in swinging and pretending like "first world" and "third world" have anything more than impressionistic significance and I told her right away that I was using it impressionistically. But she couldn't grasp that fucking simple concept that that there's no real criteria for "third world" (especially not the HDI stats she was specifically pushing) so that's why I suggest Allende might have recommended her for possible sterilization.
and here I thought it was the long distance, or maybe the overdue alimony.
and besides. if its so old, why haven't you blogged about it yet?
Needless to say. your baby's mama is waiting for that overdue post...
Which alimony? ...I mean, what alimony?
Chile Liberal did you not paid attention in Chilean History 101? Obviously Chile had slavery in the the colonial era, which lasted until the early Patria vieja era of the 19th century. The slaves in Chile were brutally treated, just like in any other slave owning country of the era. When slavery was outlawed in Chile in the 1820's the majority of the salves were sold over to Peruvian plantation owners by the abolishionists, because the Chilean abolionists wanted to exploit its slaves one more time.
(Just like all of the modern day latte liberals who turn around their backs after their peace-corps days are long over.)
The lucky slaves ones who remained in Chile settled in present day northern Chile. Their legacy can still be seen and felt today. About 1% to 2% of Chileans are direct descendants of these slaves who stayed on; then we have those who have afro-blood running through their bloods, but they would deny it just like they do with their Indian blood. It is why the typical lo-brow comment of "no hay negros" en Chile is false, because the black blood eventually escalated all the way to the most refined and illustrious Chilean families. Exploitation was and is very much part of Chilean society.
Missy A: Perhaps I was rather distracted in my teenage years during History lessons, but I think you were fast asleep, my dear.
Chile had the Encomienda system, not quite slavery. Or slavery through the back door, if you will.
The encomendero was assigned a group of natives to work for him, i exchange of the protection and care of the trustees. Crucially, they had to be introduced to the wonders of catholicism.
Techinically, this is not slavery. Only people of African descend were enslaved, but most of them died while crossing the heights of the Andes. That's why very few survided. Interestingly, natives thought their black skin was a sign of the devil and killed whites and blacks alike.
Chile was one of the early countries to abolish slavery, in 1823, after the example set by the French Revolutionaries.
We were a progressive lot - long ago though.
One more difference between the US and Chile: indigenous tribes are better off in the US than in Chile.
@Chile Liberal, Missy A is obviously referring to the black slaves so you can't accuse her of sleeping through class. If you want to engage her on encomienda that's a whole 'nother issue and you have no proof that she's ignorant of it. It's a red herring, and you know it.
Even you eventually get around to responding, and acknowledge the presence of African slaves:
>>>Only people of African descend were enslaved, but most of them died while crossing the heights of the Andes.
Again, she's wasn't talking about encomienda. So what's the disagreement?
A quality of life index determined by material wellbeing, health, political stability and security, family life, community life, climate and geography, job security, political freedom, and gender equality.
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf
Fair Enough. But in Chile, there were no more than 4 thousand slaves when it was abolished, so I think it was negligible. The main source of cheap labour was the Encomienda. Note that, as Adam Smith correctly pointed out, slavery was too expensive and their productiviy too low: paying the mimimum wage is actually more efficient. Chilean companies know this.
But I do have a question. Miss A says:
The lucky slaves ones who remained in Chile settled in present day northern Chile. Their legacy can still be seen and felt today.
Er.... where, exactly? I mean, obviously we don't have black musicians, black sportsmen/women, black dancers, black nothing. We're dull and aindia'os (like myself). I'd like to know where you have seen and felt their presence.
If this is fact, then I would find bizarre saying The lucky slaves ones who remained in Chile. OK, 'lucky' for a short while, back in the 1820s, but their descent certainly remained in Latin America's most backward (and even racist) country. Or at least isolated and fearful of everything 'foreign'.
There's a moving story about the Mulato Gil. A small, beautiful square is named after him in the Barrio Lastarria (been there, Chileno?). But I haven't realised there's any actual afro influence.
In Chile, you can call negro to swarthy, dark-skinned complexion, people who are very dark, more due to indigenous blood than black (and, oddly enough, negro is by no means derogatory).
I have relations in Antofagasta and I know the only thing people deny up there is being of Bolivian or Peruvian extraction. Never heard any lo-brow comment of "no hay negros".
Certainly, being more racially and culturally diverse would have helped the country.
''Santiago, Chile is the most expensive city in Latin America''
Well, weren't you comparing the
LAMO you're so pathetic, editing my comment when I said something criticizing you.
No, that's how your comment came. There's no way for me to go in and fuck with your comment. My only option is to publish or not publish.
You left no contact info so I published it as is so you could see that you fucked up,
and then correct your error, you butter fingered clumsy ass little sonuvabitch. (I've being fair, you insulted me first).
So make the walk-of-blogger-comment-retard-shame and retype your comment.
BTW: I've already censored two other comments, not from Ben. I didn't censor them because they're critical (which they are) but because they're artless. I accept criticism if it is
a) thoughtful
b) mindless, but entertaining in its delivery.
Those two comments didn't qualify. Neither of them were yours, Ben. Retype your fucking brilliant comment Ben and I'll decide.
Ok. I said that you were comparing the USA with Chile, and you mention that Santiago is the most expensive city in Latin America, but that's kind of irrelevant because living in Santiago could still be cheaper than living in the US.
My point, as clearly stated in the original post, is that if you're living in the most expensive city in Latin America, $2/hr doesn't cut it and therefore is exploitative.
$2/hr is also exploitative in North America.
The difference is that there are laws against that in North America, and when those laws are broken people can successfully demand their due.
In Chile:
a) $2/hr is legal
b) even if $2/hr were illegal, nobody could get a US $3 million class action settlement. There are currently tons of uncontracted workers earning less than the already-pathetic minimum wage, and nobody's having nearly as much success fighting it. If they're even trying.
Therefore, my argumentation is faithful to the original statement, that the USA is better than Chile.
That said, I've asked for examples of at least valiant efforts going on in Chile. You haven't been able to provide that. Instead, Ben, you incorrectly nitpick at minor points, while what i'm looking for is something much grander. Hope. That there are efforts underway to make Chile a better country. Is there something I can publicize, or advocate for? I humbly call on my readers to educate me, to contribute their voice to this noble discussion.
You, however, are obviously not up to the task.
In a way it's like comparing apples and pears. While the US economic strongholds are Wall Street, Sillicon Valley and the like, Chile's exports are fruits, wines and cooper.
Of course the min. wage is gonna be higher!
Comparing by purchasing power parity may give us a clerer and more useful insight.
...
OFF TOPIC:
Why don't you write on the controversy between the salmon producers and Oxfam? What about Fairtrade and chilean producers? i'd like to see your opinion.
Lousy, worthless copper.
Listen, I'm not saying Chile is worse because it's got less economic power. That's your argument that you're trying to pin on me. But it's simply not my position.
Here is my position:
Chile has incredible wealth, but it is not equally distributed. If wealth were more equally distributed, then people would get better wages.
There is no middle class in Chile. What passes for middle class is, in reality, poor or near poor by humane, first world standards - cost of living vs earnings. If you scratch the surface a bit, you'll find all this burgeoning "spending power" is really fueled by credit card debt.
Some people are getting filthy rich in Chile. Head over to my side of town, it sparkles. Inequality in Chile, according to the World Bank is not only worse than the USA, it's among the worst in the entire world.
America has a middle class. It's under attack, of course, but at least it exists. Chile simply doesn't have a middle class, but more equal distribution of wealth would obviously promote that. You pay people who work their asses off a living wage, or Ethical Wage as everyone in Chile explicitly acknowledges is more than the minimum wage then you might have something starting to resemble a middle class, not spending power inflated by credit card debt.
Chile has a huge export economy and tons of wealth pouring in, thanks to Pinochet's policies which were designed for the benefit of few. But don't disparage the wealth reaped by exports. It really is bountiful, and that wealth needs to be distributed.
Fair enough. Link that to the salmon farmers, who pay 'above the average' wages -though still rubbish- but appalingly law compared against North American/European standards.
The chilean economy is not advanced and due to its own nature it demands a low-skilled workforce, hence low-paid workers.
Make the market work better, it'll make the market demand better-educated workers, and it will increase wages. I fear you demand state intervention (à la Allende??).
More market policies, that's what Chile needs.
Chile may be crap. But it is ahead of the Latin American neighbourhood. It was all thanks to sound free-market policies. Not thanks to the state.
Check out this article, or here as well.
And just to clarify, Chile Liberal, you're being incredibly literalist here.
My position has clearly been that the US is better than because people can fight exploitation better in the US, than they can in Chile. I NEVER said that the US was better because we have a higher minimum wage. In that case, your argument that the US is a larger economy might apply, but adjust for population and I might be able to shoot it down even then.
But I'm not even going there. All I did was identify what is exploitation, and how it's resolved, and compare two countries.
You threw in ANOTHER red herring by comparing the industries. I chased it, and caught it. I alluded to the fact that even the government recognizes that the legal minimum wage is not the Ethical Wage. Of course, the pansy-ass government won't lift a finger against big business, and therefore they'll posture for the poor for this Ethical Wage, but won't dare to enforce it by law.
So I'm not saying, necessarily, that a minimum wage of US $10/hr as it is in some parts of the USA, is required. But a minimum wage of more than what's being offered.
But again that's all in response to your red herring. I'd like to bring the discussion back on track.
I'm looking for EXAMPLES of people advocating against exploitation, winning lawsuits. There's also union stuff happening which is encouraging - can anyone deliver?
OK then, and I apologise for 'distracting' the debate... didn't mean to.
I can just say that Chileans don't trust the judiciary. As simple as that. Lawsuits are not as common as in the US.
How much of the income disparity is due to education? Given a comparable educational attainment are people of different class backgrounds paid comparably? I'm a naive spoiled american, but I think alot of the class disparities could be due to access to education since historically education was expensive and the private system only provided for the education of wealthy children.
That's how I'd fix the problem. From what I've read the Chilean government realizes this, however this is a long term fix that shows much lag time in the statistics(the secondary education reform in the late 90s didn't show much improvement until the most recent PISA test) and hence does nothing to increase the wages of the uneducated manual laborer. However, I don't think much really can be done to help this person since his ability to earn is directly comparable to his skills.
I also see the current unionization movement as positive. The problem, however, is that current industries are based on the low cost of labor and wage increases that make the cost of a chilean worker more expensive than a foreign counterpart will cause employment to shift. Those that don't have large capital investments will just move production to a cheaper area. This is a problem for unskilled workers everywhere.
So again, focus on raising human capital and encourage capital investment in the country to utilize it.
Thoughts? Am I full of BS?
You're obviously right. Many have called for developing human capital but that just ain't happening. Why would it if the government sucks off big business, and in a booming export economy 96% of exports are controlled by 1% of industry.
Education is a fraud in Chile. There are hundreds if not thousands of private universities sprung up and most of them their degrees are worth little more than extra-brittle toilet paper. In Santiago the only decent schools are U. de Chile and Catolica.
Maybe some other private schools but most of them are crap.
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you. Reforming education is hard. Developing it is harder. Doing it with an exploitation based economy prone to dutch disease is even more so.
That said, I think chilean higher education has potential, but suffers from a chicken and egg problem. You can't create good graduates without good prior graduates to teach them. Not to mention that educated people are mobile and prone to teach in the u.s. unless you make them head of the central bank or finance minister.
Ideally I think all the public universities(traditional universities? not sure the name) should get accredited by a u.s. accreditation agency. This is possible - some schools in mexico (UNAM?) have it. And then the government needs to create a make work program for graduates(Phds in particular). The military would be ideal for this. The copper law could be changed to mandate funding fundamental research and education rather than buying toys.
Its all possible. It just takes time(sadly), political will(teachers don't like being told they suck very much and tend to revolt), and most of all they need to open up the checkbook. I'm all for counter-cyclical policies, but I think deficit spending on education would be a great investment.
Unfortunately the side effect of rapid development of this sort is that it tends to leave older people in the dust hence inequality even in this scenario is not likely to go away any time soon.
Ever hopeful. I find Chile to be a really interesting development story. Sadly for me, most of the good info isn't in english. I appreciate your blog for your views that can't be had elsewhere. Chile isn't perfect, but its got alot of potential. Comparing policies against best of breed countries is painful in revealing shortcomings but its much better than a placid comparison against the losers.
There were far more than four thousand african slaves.
Now about the encomienda system; that system enslaved many of the indigenous population with very similar conditions to the african slaves. The whole rebuttal of the encomienda system does not make sense. It was basically the same thing, enslavement of a specific demographic. And yes we did follow the French very closely all the way to their elitist nuances and habits. Ironic that you name yourself Chile Liberal, when you should rename yourself French Liberal. La Marianne is the French symbol of France.
And darling the afro population is Chile in located in Arica. In main city ports like Valparaiso it is common to see people who were born to an American black marine and a Chilean hooker.
this comparison is stupid..
in chile of course the incomes are lower than the usa, but chile is a lot more cheaper than USA too. anyway USA have a lot more incomes than chile
pib ppa USA us43.000
chile pib ppa us14.000
chile have a mostly free health system, 12 years of education are obligatory..
in social aspects i think chile is a lot more open minded than the USA in average. and more educated too.
chile is now like a "second world country" still not developed but not a crapy country like others in latinamerica..
chile isa not a second world country.
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