Chile Fucking Canadá
I had axe to grind with Canadians but then, without even me looking for it, some Chileans jumped onto the chopping block by carrying their Orwellian hypocrisy across international borders. First though, Canada.
Specifically, Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
While paying a visit to Barrick Gold, Canadian mining firm of Pascua Lama fama, Harper implicitly gave a strong show of support to the entirely questionable project. The way the Forbes article paraphrases Barrick's spokesman is superb.
On a more personal note, Harper could take some cues from Bachelet in reputation management. Indescribably lame, but to her credit successful, she got her supposedly denigrating character pulled from Sony's Nada Que Ver. A couple quick notes about that: first of all, welcome to the 21st century lady, you're a public figure and you're gonna get taunted, get used to it. Secondly, shame on Sony for buckling, Bachelet should be skinned alive for her hatred of the poor.
So here's the take-away for Harper: it's okay if your policies are pro-exploitation, accepting support from evil corporations, whatever you want. But going out of your way to visit and tie your name to Barrick Gold? The same outfit that Al Gore kicked off his supporters' list when he came to Chile?
And speaking of you, Barrick, perhaps the local fresco de raja (a Chilean trait of presumptuousness according to the The Clinic, September 18, 2006) has rubbed off onto your Santiago office? To claim that a singularly diabolical project represents all of Canada?
Anyway, let's move on:
Oops, I just compared Chile to a bunch of black and brown exploited third worlders. How dare I. We all know Chile is a misplaced little slice of Europe, a "socialist" nation with a strong respect for the environment and workers rights, a veritable Scandinavia of the South, and white.
But wait. BREAKING NEWS! Chile just turned brown!
Unbelievable. A week after the Canada-hosted FIFA contest in which Chile beat Nigeria, a victory itself allegedly aided by racism, Chileans get beat 3-0 by Argentina, then by the Toronto police who started out getting served themselves - it's a brawl, but police don't like to lose so they pulled out the pepper spray and tasers.
And now Canada is a racist country. Gimme a fucking break.
Everyone and his perrito up to the Presidenta is jumping in on this, many pulling the race card because the Chilean players and their unruly fans started a scuffle that got out of control and the police probably used excessive force, something that would shock, I mean SHOCK the virgin sensibilities of any Chilean.
One congressman or government official on TV (didn't catch who it was, there were many) said that if instead of Chilean, the team were German or some other European country, the police certainly wouldn't have used such force. Hold on one fucking second. Can you really prove that?
As long as we're in the business of making such sweeping assumptions, I'd bet my bottom dollar that neither would the Chilean police use such force against a group of Europeans in Chile, while they routinely do so against their own people. That's racism, but in a much more perverted, self-loathing manner. Let's not forget how a typical protest in Santiago ends; school-aged children pummeled by tear-gas laced water cannons. Can't wait till Chilean police get their first shipment of tasers.
Chile accusing Canada of racism. Canada, please don't let them get away with this. Send an undercover reporter to Santiago and the provinces and poll the "middle class" on their opinions about Peruvians. Dirty drunks. Lazy, yet rowdy. That's what you'll hear. Casual racism in Chile is astonishing, although typical of an uneducated, third world populace. And that's what Chile is, mostly.
Would Chile make such an uproar if the same thing happened to the Peruvian team, or the Argentines? Hell no, those would be violent South Americans who got what was coming to them.
What shameless, hypocritical political opportunism.
Oh yeah, another congressman called the actions of the Toronto police a form of "torture".
Here's my favorite: Iván Moreira, an UDI (Democratic Unity) member of parliament, recommended that, based on this incident, international free-trade agreements now include a clause concerning human rights. Mind you that the UDI is the party of Augusto Pinochet. While a precipitous lack of support befell Pinochet, especially after financial scandals were revealed, Moreira has remained faithful to this day. He's recommended that Pinochet's house be made a National Monument and when the General died was quoted in the Washington Post:
Except that it's quite telling how Chile gets its knickers in a bunch over some of their prized show-dogs getting roughed up on the international stage. (Meanwhile Mapuche Indians continue to have their land stolen and are incarcerated under Pinochet-era terrorism laws, that 18 years of democracy just hasn't gotten around to striking off the books). But we all know that sports are one of the more "acceptable" venues for minorities, and those la rojita kiddies are a shit-load darker than any of the snow-white Chileans I've met who tell me of their first-world travels for business, school or leisure.
Just another example of how easy it is for Chile's chameleon to change its color.
UPDATE: take a look at Chilean Hernán Rodriguez' take on it. He pulls the race card, without providing a grain of proof that other nationalities wouldn't meet the same fate in the same situation, and then goes on to describe the police brutality as suitable for "delinquents". No mention, of course, the routine punishment applied by the carabineros de Chile to protesters on much less provocation than that of la rojita. Tell me that the 35,000 Chileans living in Canada don't face a much safer, more just police force than the Chileans living in Chile.
That said, I do like what Hernán says about the free trade whoreishness of Chile's government, and the fact that Canada's foreign policy toward Chilean people is as racist as Chile's own government is. I just have yet to see substantial proof that the Toronto police were being racist, or that their alleged racism is a reflection of Canada.
Another UPDATE: Here's the Canadian perspective:
The Victim Card and many of the same sentiments expressed here, too.
Specifically, Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
While paying a visit to Barrick Gold, Canadian mining firm of Pascua Lama fama, Harper implicitly gave a strong show of support to the entirely questionable project. The way the Forbes article paraphrases Barrick's spokesman is superb.
With a ragtag group of protesters camped outside the company's high-rise headquarters in the center of Santiago, a Barrick spokesman blamed "professional activists" for giving Barrick - and Canada - a black eye over the massive Pascua Lama project that straddles the Chilean-Argentine border.So charming when a small country worries that its whole reputation swings on a single news event, and ends up more ridiculous than it could have hoped for. A "black eye." If you'd kept your mouth shut I bet many wouldn't have drawn the Canadian connection.
On a more personal note, Harper could take some cues from Bachelet in reputation management. Indescribably lame, but to her credit successful, she got her supposedly denigrating character pulled from Sony's Nada Que Ver. A couple quick notes about that: first of all, welcome to the 21st century lady, you're a public figure and you're gonna get taunted, get used to it. Secondly, shame on Sony for buckling, Bachelet should be skinned alive for her hatred of the poor.
So here's the take-away for Harper: it's okay if your policies are pro-exploitation, accepting support from evil corporations, whatever you want. But going out of your way to visit and tie your name to Barrick Gold? The same outfit that Al Gore kicked off his supporters' list when he came to Chile?
And speaking of you, Barrick, perhaps the local fresco de raja (a Chilean trait of presumptuousness according to the The Clinic, September 18, 2006) has rubbed off onto your Santiago office? To claim that a singularly diabolical project represents all of Canada?
Anyway, let's move on:
Harper said Tuesday that Canada abides by Canadian standards of corporate social responsibility, and that it was up to Chile and Argentina to decide whether it is meeting environmental protection standards.Next in: De Beers says Luxembourg abides by Luxembourgian standards of fair labor practices, it's up to Botswana and India whether or not allow peaceful strikes and regulate child labor.
Oops, I just compared Chile to a bunch of black and brown exploited third worlders. How dare I. We all know Chile is a misplaced little slice of Europe, a "socialist" nation with a strong respect for the environment and workers rights, a veritable Scandinavia of the South, and white.
But wait. BREAKING NEWS! Chile just turned brown!
Unbelievable. A week after the Canada-hosted FIFA contest in which Chile beat Nigeria, a victory itself allegedly aided by racism, Chileans get beat 3-0 by Argentina, then by the Toronto police who started out getting served themselves - it's a brawl, but police don't like to lose so they pulled out the pepper spray and tasers.
And now Canada is a racist country. Gimme a fucking break.
Everyone and his perrito up to the Presidenta is jumping in on this, many pulling the race card because the Chilean players and their unruly fans started a scuffle that got out of control and the police probably used excessive force, something that would shock, I mean SHOCK the virgin sensibilities of any Chilean.
One congressman or government official on TV (didn't catch who it was, there were many) said that if instead of Chilean, the team were German or some other European country, the police certainly wouldn't have used such force. Hold on one fucking second. Can you really prove that?
As long as we're in the business of making such sweeping assumptions, I'd bet my bottom dollar that neither would the Chilean police use such force against a group of Europeans in Chile, while they routinely do so against their own people. That's racism, but in a much more perverted, self-loathing manner. Let's not forget how a typical protest in Santiago ends; school-aged children pummeled by tear-gas laced water cannons. Can't wait till Chilean police get their first shipment of tasers.
Chile accusing Canada of racism. Canada, please don't let them get away with this. Send an undercover reporter to Santiago and the provinces and poll the "middle class" on their opinions about Peruvians. Dirty drunks. Lazy, yet rowdy. That's what you'll hear. Casual racism in Chile is astonishing, although typical of an uneducated, third world populace. And that's what Chile is, mostly.
Would Chile make such an uproar if the same thing happened to the Peruvian team, or the Argentines? Hell no, those would be violent South Americans who got what was coming to them.
What shameless, hypocritical political opportunism.
Oh yeah, another congressman called the actions of the Toronto police a form of "torture".
Here's my favorite: Iván Moreira, an UDI (Democratic Unity) member of parliament, recommended that, based on this incident, international free-trade agreements now include a clause concerning human rights. Mind you that the UDI is the party of Augusto Pinochet. While a precipitous lack of support befell Pinochet, especially after financial scandals were revealed, Moreira has remained faithful to this day. He's recommended that Pinochet's house be made a National Monument and when the General died was quoted in the Washington Post:
"He leaves us today, but I remain proud to support him, I express what so many silent Chileans want to express: loyalty to his government."Again, fresco de raja. To his credit, though, he is good for a round tongue-lashing of ex-president Ricardo Lagos as well as the crooks who are currently in power. Although I'm afraid it's somewhat counterproductive, charges of corruption coming from a man who expresses unflinching loyalty to Al Capone of the Southern Cone. Similarly I need not waste more words on his sudden concern for human rights.
Except that it's quite telling how Chile gets its knickers in a bunch over some of their prized show-dogs getting roughed up on the international stage. (Meanwhile Mapuche Indians continue to have their land stolen and are incarcerated under Pinochet-era terrorism laws, that 18 years of democracy just hasn't gotten around to striking off the books). But we all know that sports are one of the more "acceptable" venues for minorities, and those la rojita kiddies are a shit-load darker than any of the snow-white Chileans I've met who tell me of their first-world travels for business, school or leisure.
Just another example of how easy it is for Chile's chameleon to change its color.
UPDATE: take a look at Chilean Hernán Rodriguez' take on it. He pulls the race card, without providing a grain of proof that other nationalities wouldn't meet the same fate in the same situation, and then goes on to describe the police brutality as suitable for "delinquents". No mention, of course, the routine punishment applied by the carabineros de Chile to protesters on much less provocation than that of la rojita. Tell me that the 35,000 Chileans living in Canada don't face a much safer, more just police force than the Chileans living in Chile.
That said, I do like what Hernán says about the free trade whoreishness of Chile's government, and the fact that Canada's foreign policy toward Chilean people is as racist as Chile's own government is. I just have yet to see substantial proof that the Toronto police were being racist, or that their alleged racism is a reflection of Canada.
Another UPDATE: Here's the Canadian perspective:
The Victim Card and many of the same sentiments expressed here, too.
posted by Chileno @ 6:22 PM
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Three cheers - it's a bit hard for Canadians to read that crap in the Chilean press about the Toronto police's (perhaps overdone) reaction to a bunch of rioting kids. Violence at sports events is not unknown in Canada (ever see a hockey game?) but it rarely spills out on the streets.
The press and public reaction in Canada is interesting. There is genuine concern for the kids (18-20) who were so disappointed in the outcome of the Argentina game and the shockingly bad refereeing that went on. But, had the rioting been permitted to proceed, they might have been hurt. BEFORE the police interfered, the Chilean players had trashed the bus that had been provided for them - and the fans were egging them on.
The fans, of course were Chilean-Canadians - the sons of the thousands of Chilean exiles who found safety in Canada in the 70's when their own army and carabineros were hunting them down.
Bachelet really put her foot in her mouth and one hopes that someone will inform her that the Chilean kids were deservedly the sentimental favourites across Canada. Not only because of the 35,000+ Chileans who live here (in non-racist comfort and safety) - but because, except for a brief moment of post-game dejection, the Chilean team performed brilliantly and the sold-out stadia gave them standing ovations.
Tomorrow, Sunday, they play their last game here - against Austria for the Bronze Medal. I have the feeling that the Chileans will get a standing ovation again - and an apology for the way they were treated. We happen to like kids here - especially Chilean ones.
The press down there should have known better - and one hopes that Lagos will call Bachelet up and tell her to shut-the-fuck up. Lagos spent time at Simon Fraser University here in the 'dark days' and helped me in the 90's (when he was Aylwin's Minister of Education) to set up an Intercambio de Estudiantes between Canada and Chile - paid for by us 'racists'.
Ah well, we still love Chile! This too shall pass.
Thanks for your post, Will.
Querido Chileno
En mi post dije textualmente que "...la policia Canadiense golpeo, arresto y trato a esos mismos jugadores como delincuentes comunes."
Jamas dije que NO se lo merecian. Por el contrario, creo que la policia actuo con razon. Una vez terminado un partido de futbol, la gente civilizada se va a sus casas. Los exaltados y mafiosos en cambio se agrupan para amenazar a los arbitros y crear confusion. Esos exaltados se arriesgan a sufrir las consecuencias mas alla de su raza. En este caso, el equipo chileno fue tratado como una orda de incivilzados, eso es todo. No hay nada de malo en eso.
Sin embargo, ese trato "merecido" no es mas que una analogia de lo que sucede en Pascua Lamas. You get, what you deserve. Si nos comportaramos como gente civilizada le dariamos una patada en el culo a Barrick Gold por su obsceno proyecto , sin embargo, nos comportamos como mercenarios al dejarnos seducir por el brillo del oro. Vuelvo a repetir. You get what you deserve.
No prob, Tom. It's apparent that Chilean politicians are milking this for all it's worth, they've got local constituencies to take care of, and everyone's leaping to the fore to show their "human rights" concern. What utter hypocrisy. It'll be interesting to see if even the Chileans buy it. Unfortunately, the politicians do tend to get away with this type of nonsense in other circumstances. If they can "prove" how smog and poverty are getting better, when these problems are actually getting worse, then why can't they suddenly become the noble defenders of human rights. It's the purest form of bullshit. Been to Chilean prison lately? Or a random crack-down in the center of Santiago?
My feeling is that Chilean politicians are no more hypocritical than anywhere else, they just do it so incredibly artlessly, because there's no real internal opposition to challenge them. Osea, the UDI "opposition" is essentially a terrorist party (for its association with Pinochet) that should probably be criminalized. So there's no real motivation for the Concertación to stand apart that much. It's a hall of mirrors, and it's passable in Chile because there's absolutely nowhere else this fucked people can turn.
What I really want to see is Chilean politicians get bitch slapped on the international court of opinion. Once you get out of Chile it's a whole new football game, where hypocrisy is a lot more well-produced, and my strong desire is that Chile have a rude awakening. I look forward to your updates from Canadá!
And I should acknowledge that even within a failed government like Chile's there are things that do work, it sounds like you got some good work accomplished with Lagos.
That said, any half-witted terrorist organization will also raise funds for education and social programs, just to give themselves legitimacy. I see very little difference in how Michelle Bachelet opened up a bunch of daycare centers to beef up her "socialist" credentials, while signing a free trade agreement with Canada that will end up facilitating the complete destruction of the glaciers and leave Chileans with chapped lips screaming "HELP, WATER!!!" not to mention stolen land and the whole mountain of shadiness that is PASCUA LAMA.
Hernán dice, "You get what you deserve." Pero yo no creo que los chilenos merecen eso. Son víctimas de un gobierno super explotador y corrupto. Los blancos y ricos o mandan o huyen, pero los pobres morenos están atrapado acá. Cuando intentaron organizar hace unos décadas, los gringos y cuicos aseguraron que fracasarían.
Tampoco estoy tan pro-brutalidad policial, Hernán. Honestamente no sé que pasó en Toronto. Tal vez era lo que "merecían," osea, lo que los pacos necesitaban hacer para controlar la situación.
Pero si fuera excesivo o racista y una investigación independiente revelaría eso, entonces yo diría 'que vergüenza!'
Bueno, gracias por la clarificación, creo que entiendo tu punto mejor - que Bachelet se enoja por una weá en Canadá, pero no defiende lo que de veras importa (como...AGUA!) entonces muestra que ella, como todo los de la Concertación, son putos sin vergüenzas que odian a su propia gente, que callen en populismo porque es lo más fácil, pero son super bueno para sacar su puñado de dólares.
Pero no creo que la gente chilena merece eso. Claro que quiero que despierten y exigan sus derechos, pero entiendo que su falta de organización y confianza es una enfermedad resultado de poderes super powerfules y siniestros. Hay que sanar esta enfermedad pa' sanar y restaurar la dignidad.
In my opinion, the force used on the players was unnecessary. The police is there to protect the players, and instead, they ended up injuring some of them.
I'm sure most Canadians aren't racist at all, but I agree that if Canada's own players approached the crowd, the police would not have acted in the same way. I think everything could have been resolved in a more calm manner.
Also, what's wrong with Bachelet getting into this? She is merely wanting to find out exactly what happened so that the correct action is taken, otherwise she would most likely be criticized for not doing anything about it.
>>>She is merely wanting to find out exactly what happened so that the correct action is taken
That's not true. She's on the record as saying that the Toronto Police's actions constituted an "unjustified aggression"
The responsible thing would have been to wait for the outcome of an investigation. OF COURSE she would be criticized. When is a leader of a nation NOT criticized. You know better than to pull out that idiotic argument. I know democracy is relatively new to Chile, but it's not like you guys are holding up thumbs with purple dye and then getting blown up by suicide bombers. You KNOW that a politician is going to take some flak, no matter what she does.
So why didn't she do the right thing? Why didn't she wait till a formal investigation had taken place?
No, she's a cynical embarrassment like most other Chilean politicians. She acted like a populist, and jumped on an opportunity to win people over sentimentally, by spouting out unfounded accusations.
Meanwhile, she just signed off a free trade agreement with Canada and is possibly going to give Pascua Lama the go-ahead.
Are you telling me you would rather be hoodwinked by your president's populism while your country's natural resources are pilfered? Are you really that dumb?
>>>I'm sure most Canadians aren't racist at all, but I agree that if Canada's own players approached the crowd, the police would not have acted in the same way. I think everything could have been resolved in a more calm manner.
Again, what makes you so fucking sure? You're entitled to that opinion, but keep in mind it only makes you look ridiculous. You have absolutely no proof. So carry on with your inanity, just like many other Chileans, and their esteemed "press", giving the whole world a little taste of the pettiness and unprofessionalism that is currency within Chile's borders.
" Canada-hosted FIFA contest in which Chile beat Nigeria, a victory itself allegedly aided by racism"...that comment (and the article that accompanied it) is a bit unfounded in the wider context of FIFA competitions and teams and their coaches disagreeing with referees' decisions (and I am by no means saying that they always get it right)but you (or the Nigerian coach) can't automatically assume that a bad call is fuelled by racism...I watched the Australian Socceroos play Japan in the Asian Cup on the weekend and the referee consistently award a plethora of free kicks to Japan and ignore a number of dirty plays from the Japanese until half time but I wouldnt try to justify the whole thing by saying that the Kuwaiti referee is a racist against whiteys...hardly likely. Just bad judgement, which happens alot of the time. I agree that FIFA need to get rid of racism (specifically perpetrated by players themselves, and also by heavily favouring players inside the European leagues and barely acknowledging those in Asia or Africa). I also agree largely about Chilean institutional racism, however, I have to say, while you'd expect that behaviour from American police (no offence) and most definitely from Chilean police, I was shocked that this all went down in Canada. I think regardless of Bachelet trying to take advantage, it was unecessarily heavy handed and avoidable and has definitely marred my perception of Canada being such a tolerant country.
ps- I thoroughly enjoy reading your blog
Hi..
First i want to tell you that if to leave to a commentary in my blog, you avoid the offenses, and you maintain a respectful vocabulary.
I suppose that really you are not Chilean, and suppose that you do not live in Chile. Therefore you cannot speak that you do not know. The countries and the customs change.
The aggressions lived by the sportsmen do not have any justification. The use of the violence seems to me not justified. In the context in which was used.
We are not customary to see something thus, for these days. Pain is one that each you see that they speak of Chile leaves something of pinochet or the Dictatorship. Since the times that we lived nowadays are very different.
There are no racism tests, nor don't mention it since the Canadian police cosatiated the freedom of press, which makes us remember the time of the dictatorship. And it's strange, being Canada a free and democratic country. Nevertheless there is people who have tests in images and videos of which happened there.
In addition the subject to racism, was expressed as a question. Nevertheless, to cosatiate the freedom of press is without place to doubt a lack of freedom of expression , something that does not happen by these days in this called Chile country.
>>>allegedly aided by racism
That's all I said. My only point was that someone said a Chilean victory was aided by racism. I'm not saying that the victory was aided by racism, just that that accusation is on the record.
It's a bit puzzling how Chile, which - who knew! - is a world leader in racial sensitivity and human rights issues, so easily overlooked that one.
As you point out, the FIFA might have acted in a racist manner, might not have. Same with the Toronto police.
Nor do I know if the Toronto police used extraneous force. There seem to be good arguments on both sides, it's not as clearcut as Rodney King, for instance.
Anyway, don't apologize for mentioning the awful record of various US police departments and individuals. "It's Giuliani Time" comes to mind, as well as the recent MacArthur Park brutality.
My impression, however, is that there seems to be a certain level of institutional accountability as well as recourse to justice that victims have in the United States, that they don't have in Chile. Far from perfect, but something like a fighting chance whereas in Chile there's just so much less people can do, or think they can do which is also important.
I just LOVE to see those cuicos frescos de raja Chilenos in Canada with signs calling the Toronto police "cerdos". Jesus fucking Christ. When I say "paco" to cops in Chile they become somewhat frightening, standing up, puffing out their chests, what did you say??? they ask me, and lecture me about "lack of respect". Mind you I'm a young white male with a foreign accent. Imagine if it were a Chileno from the poblacion saying "paco", he'd get beat down with billy club on the spot.
So these dumbfucks hold up signs saying "cerdo" with perfect impunity, at something that they think might be police brutality, but it's UNCLEAR, at least as far as I can tell. What unadulterated crap.
I've read blogs where Chilean idiots are calling this a mini-Sept 11. Try calling the cops "cerdos" in your home country. You'll go running back to Canada lickety split if daddy's got the bucks to fund your little voyage. Wait, I this next comment just in from that same blogger...
Actually, look above for that lastest comment by "Bruj@". Here's my response:
Listen, Witch, first of all I do live in Chile and I've about had it the self-righteous hypocrisy which is done so artlessly by your gov't, your press and citizens like you. Not everyone, of course. I admire Chileans like the economist/environmentalist Marcel Claude and the poet Mauricio Redolés who do excellent work pointing out the Orwellian lies with which the streets here are not paved.
Secondly, the "offensive" language that I used hardly exceeds the offensive, racially-charged vitriol and damning, yet unfounded accusations found in your entry, and the preceding comments. Let's look at one of the exemplary lines you spouted off, Witch:
>>>Se piensan superiores por hablar inglés y tener una economía estable, por ser blancos y tener una estatura superior. Me hace recordar a los Alemanes y su Xenofobia
And you chide me for dropping a turd in your rose garden. You are so full of shit.
So I said that Chileans who pulled the race card were hypocritical weones, and were embarrassing their own country on the international stage. I felt that I was safe in unloading a little bit of harshness, if only to match the tone of your post. Looking back, however, I think I failed. I wasn't harsh enough.
Where to fucking start.
Would you walk up to a person from Germany and call him Xenophobic? Could you look a Peruvian and tell her, with a straight face, that she is more welcome in Chile than in Germany?
A Chilean alluding to Nazis. For the love of God, Chile was the 2nd Life for Nazis! And Germany has done a remarkable job of recognizing its past. Chile can't seem to remember its past. Can you find one racist law on the books in Germany? Now let's look at Chile, which is still run on a Pinochet constitution and imprisons Mapuche Indians. Chilean jail cells are still a violation of human rights according to international standards.
And you say the Chilean police today does not "cosatiate" (by which I think you mean "impede") the press??? Then tell me, Witch, What
about
this guy?
I'm not Chilean, but I live here and honestly I think I know a shitload more about your country than you do. You're a rich white cuica living in a protected, insular, upper class neighborhood of Santiago, you're into Tarot and Eastern Philosophy yet you know nothing about the West side of your own city. You listen to Manu Chau and consider yourself "of the people". You are fake, you are the worst of Chile, yet since you and your class are the most economically solvent, you represent this country. You are a disgrace. People like you should have their lips sewn tight.
Racism and classism and sexism are serious problems in Chile, but it is not being addressed by accusing Canada of racism. You have no proof that the Toronto police were motivated by racism, and so you should keep your mouth shut until that proof comes out.
The alacrity with which rich Chileans to jump on accusations of racism only reveals their personal shame for profound, yet repressed institutional AND casual racism.
What I was trying to get at in my comment on your blog was people like you are making Chileans look ridiculous, and I honestly recommend that you stop, and take back your accusations of racism if you want to save face. Consider this constructive criticism for your image, which is about all you have at this point.
For reference, you can read the entry Witch did and see my "offensive" commentary here:
Unadulterated Crap [ES]
And even if you can't read Spanish she's got this Open Letter to the Toronto police (quite an amusing read)in English "because probably they do not know another language...Who is finally underdeveloped?"
As long as we're making presumptuous pot-shots at language skills....ah, forget it ;-)
Tus comentarios, mas que comentarios parecen amenazas. ¿Porqué no eres capaz de soportar diferencias de opiniones?.
Pensé que eras alguien de mentalidad mas abierta. Creo que no es necesario ofender a las personas para discutir o expresar opiniones. Pero es solo mi humilde opinión.
This got really funny. Loved it.
>>>parecen amenazas
No son amenazas. Consulta con alguien que entiende mejor el inglés.
>>>es necesario ofender a las personas para discutir o expresar opiniones
Y porque dices que los alemanes son xenofóbicas? O que los pacos canadienses son racistas? No crees que eso puede ser ofensiva?
Tú empezaste una discusión con palabras ofensivas, y terminas criticando a mí por palabras ofensivas.
>>>mentalidad mas abierta.
Bien, si tu tienes una mentalidad tan abierta, como concluyes tan fácilmente que los alemanes son xenofóbicas y los pacos torontinos racistas?
Tengo una mentalidad abierta para argumentos racionales, y personas no hipócritas.
Primero que nada, si entendí perfectamente tu respuesta. Y sigo pensando que está expresado en una actitud mas combativa que de discusión. Y sigo pensando que para conversar no es necesario ofender o recurrir a la violencia.
Mira.. quizás yo no me expresé correctamente en el blog. Pero el título del post era en forma de pregunta... eso debido a que no puedo afirmar nada como concluyente, no soy specialista,ni político, ni nada. Solo una ciudadana común y corriente. No estoy diciendo que TODOS sean esto o aquello. La idea es reflexionar acerca de los temas. Quizás tuve malas experiencias con Alemanes y es por ello que tengo una mala impresión de ellos. Pero no por eso los trataría mal, pues pienso que las personas son mas que nacionalidades.
Es cierto, quizás tachar de "racistas" a todo un pueblo o estamento no es lo mas adecuado.
Pero era mi sentir ante la indignación de la golpiza que todos vimos por televisión. Me produjo tristeza y desesperación como eran tratados esos muchachos y además estaban tan lejos de sus casas. Quizás es un poco un sentimiento de madre o de mujer muy visceral, no se.
Y además un terrible sentimiento de inseguridad al pensar que uno alguna ves puede llegar a estar en la misma situación, en un pais extranjero, indefenso y además sin poder comunicarse bien con la policía, me puse en el lugar de ellos. Y eso da muchísima impotencia.
Al ver eso en las noticias nacionales e internacionales te queda una imagen de Canadá como País, bastante mala. Quizás yo solo represento una parte de la respuesta a esa imagen que se nos presenta. ¿o no?
>>You are fake, you are the worst of Chile, yet since you and your class are the most economically solvent, you represent this country. You are a disgrace. People like you should have their lips sewn tight. <<
Tú estas muy equivocado en eso... Realmente no sabes nada de lo que estás hablando. Ni sabes nada de mi. Me llamas "cuica" y que no sé que pasa al otro lado de mi ciudad. Es cierto que ahora vivo en una mejor situación y me siento orgullosa de ello porque ha sido gracias al esfuerzo de mi familia, pero en otro tiempo viví del otro lado. Mi casa era muy pobre y a veces no teníamos que comer. Hoy tengo educación y me gano la vida trabajando como cualquier chileno, de lunes a viernes, tomando el transantiago y pagando el arriendo de una casa para darle a mi hija algo mejor de lo que me dieron. Jamás fui una privilegiada si a eso te refieres con tus palabras ofensivas. Mi abuelo no sabía leer... y en fin muchas otras cosas que no te importa saber de mi.
Estas pecando exactamente de lo mismo que me acusas. Te paras en una tarima de superioridad moral e indicas a las demás personas con tu dedo acusador.
Pero quizás como yo tuve una impresión de los "pacos" canadienses... tu tengas una impresión de esta "falsa" como me llamas.
Mi sentimiento es verdadero, quiero justicia y quiero mejores oportunidades para mi pais, como yo las tuve gracias a mis padres. Para que como yo, otras personas también las tengan. Pero eso no va a ser posible mientras no exista dignidad por ellas mismas. Y la dignidad empieza por defender nuestros derechos aquí y en donde sea... sea en canadá , en estados unidos o en Perú.
Porque somos seres humanos y nos merecemos respeto, incluso si soy una "cuica" lo peor de mi Pais.
Quite an interchange! I didn't mean to start yet another fight! (Well, maybe I did ;-)
But I'd like to clarify some of the things I said - or re-emphasize them.
First of all, the Chilean players were relatively blameless - they were overtired , both by the game they were unjustifiably forced to play shorthanded - and by their 2 weeks of travel back and forth across our country.
Add to that their loss to the Argentinians after five straight wins with no goals scored against them - and OF COURSE they were overwrought.
The police certainly over-reacted and should have acted with more understanding - BUT, it all escalated very quickly. As the story clarified over the past couple of days, the police were more worried about the hundreds of demonstrating Chilean fans (most of them Canadians, by the way, or the sons of Chilean-Canadians) who were loudly threatening to 'march' through the streets in downtown Toronto and were trying to get the players to join them. The police tried to separate the screaming fans from the tired-out players. If you watched the players and the crazed fans during the final moments of the game threatening the officials (oops - a German ref), it's small wonder that the police tried to keep the two groups apart.
By then, the young players probably lumped the 'police-officials' with the 'game-officials' and resisted the attempts to get them on their bus or back into the stadium.
That's when a few of the police got as out-of-control as the players and fans - and pepper spray was used - when it shouldn't have been.
It had NOTHING to do with racism and it certainly wasn't serious enough to get President Bachelet's 'skirt in a knot' - nor did it warrant the nonsense in the Chilean press headlines. But, understandable, I guess, the press being what it is.
I have glad tidings to share - the crowds at the Toronto Football stadium today DID give the Chilean kids a standing ovation and cheered them on in their victory over Austria for the Bronze Medal. Dozens of Canadians spoke to the Chilean players (including three policemen) and apologized for making them feel so unwelcome in a country that considers itself "Chile-Norte" in some ways.
We are both too small as nations to be a threat to anyone, both well-educated and in sound economic shape (well, sort of - if you just look at GNP and not at its distribution in Chile) - and we are both at the 'poles' of Las Americas - 'mas al Norte y mas al Sur' (pardon my poor Spanish).
So we, as a nation, feel close to Chile in many ways. And no group of 'accidental immigrants' have been more welcome in Canada than the Chileans who have enriched our country.
If President Bachelet was a bit hasty in her populist zeal - well, our Prime Minister Harper is a Conservative Baboon.
So look - you Chileans who read Will's fascinating blog - Canada is embarrassed by the events in Toronto a few days ago. The young FIFA football players were a credit to their country over here for the past month, and for 15 hours of great football watched by millions of Canadians.
So lets be nice.
>>>Ni sabes nada de mi. Me llamas "cuica" y que no sé que pasa al otro lado de mi ciudad.
Weona, si no sabes que los pacos son brutales, que sabes? Si no sabes que restringen la prensa, que sabes? Si tu, tan auténtica, tan "rags to riches" no reaccionas al facho Christian que comenta en tu blog sobre los izquierdistas terroristas, diciendo que los chilenos son "una raza blanca", entonces que eres aparte de una cuica sin vergüenza. Peor aun que te deshaces tus raíces pobres, y asumes (y publicas en internet) todos tus tendencias cuicas que has asumida, las imágenes de tu opresor.
Mas patética aún, tú muestras tanta preocupación para algunos héroes futbolistas que tienen el lujo de viajar a Canadá, el orgullos de Chile, pero no puedes reaccionar enojadísima contra Christian cuando dice que su país es blanco? Los futbolistas son BIEN MORENOS.
Niegas que hay brutalidad chilena porque PENSASTE que yo no estuviera en Chile, cachando Chile. Pensaste que podrías haber mentido sobre este país como a tí te mientas cada día.
>>>Te paras en una tarima de superioridad moral e indicas a las demás personas con tu dedo acusador.
Nada que ver, weona. TÚ empezaste la discusión con palabras ofensivas sobre otras personas, abriste la puerta y yo te seguí en el mismo tono.
Nunca he dicho que ataques personales son malos. Tú has dicho eso, mientras has hecho ataques personales, (y los re-afirmaste en decir que el sentir del país alemán no es racista, pero su gente sí'), pero volviste a criticar a mí para ataques personales. Te pregunto de nuevo, podrías haber tenido esta conversación con un alemán?
TÚ acusaste los canadienses de ser abusivas y racistas SIN PRUEBA y yo simplemente mostré prueba que Chile, como país, tiene mucho más registro de racismo y abuso de dd.hh. que los canadienses, y que tal vez estaría mejor enfocar en los problemas chilenas que tienen PRUEBA de ser problemas, que acusaciones SIN BASE sobre un unos pacos en una situación poca clara en un país super inofensiva en comparación a Chile.
Congrats on another incendiary post.
I hope you would say everything to Bruj@ to her face if there was such the opportunity, or is that besides the point? Bruj@..you are a lot more eloquent in Spanish...keep it up. Your experiences inform this forum with information that otherwise may not be communicated.
I guess what this post is about is hypocrisy, Chileans unifying (and thus washing out differences and ignoring internal conflict) against an external enemy. Kind of like the Red States who voted for Bush. Im sure they have lots of problems at home and have their own share of hypocrisy at home.
So it is interesting that we talk about soccer, which always accomplishes this well...bringing together people around a common goal, when otherwise they would be very different.
It would be interesting to know why Chileans don't see racism at home, yet are particularly sensitive to it abroad?
I wonder if someone like Hernan has faced racism abroad like where in Spain Chileans are seen as sudacas or in New York or Chicago or DC, even if he might have been able to brush it off ably and without ruffled feathers...because his place in society has been well-established.
I wonder if people like Bruj@, whose social situation seems to be more mobile has faced or seen people "on the other side" as victims of racism in Chile, by the state or by people of another class?
I wonder if he/she has done anything about it. If not, I wonder why?
Why are Chileans so passive about recognizing and correcting abusive situations in their own country?
I just wish chilean cops knew how to put people in holds, or learned some tai-chi or Aikido, like how to neutralize violence, instead of create incentives for it.
You say you live in Chile. Do you find yourself welcomed there? What makes you enjoy criticizing Chile and its people? Apart from your admiration of a couple of Chileans, everything in your comments about Chile has been negative. You might want to consider moving back to your own country if all you have to say are negative things about Chile. I don't even want to bother reading any other of your blog entries, to search for good points about Chile, I doubt I'll find any after reading your comments here.
You have a serious problem with how you take the comments which oppose your opinions, as everything is responded to in a mood which seems enfuriated, like you said to me: ''are you really that dumb?''. I just hope you're not like that talking to people face-to-face.
As you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You blatantly believe that the Canadian police using force on the Chilean players was exaggerated in the Chilean media, but that is your own personal opinion. You weren't there either. The evidence shown from photographs makes me, and many other people, Chilean or otherwise, believe that is was unjustified aggression, whether triggered by racisim or not. Is it not a possibility that YOU are wrong and we are right?
Again, it is my own opinion that the Canadian police would have acted differently to their own team. Of couse, I cannot be sure. That is obvious. But it is also a possibility, and you just don't want to accept it. How is my opinion making me look ''ridiculous''? Do you think everything you say is absolutely accurate? You make a lot of stupid assumptions yourself. I only made assumptions which are perfectly feasible, but which I cannot prove.
"Anonymous", you raise a lot of great questions which have already been raised (i.e. 'why don't yanqui go home?'). My infuriation comes from the fact that you're wasting my time. If you were to actually read what I write, pick it apart and address me intelligently, then I wouldn't mind extensive rebuttal of your points, engaging you in respectful dialog. You might even come out on top, but you haven't demonstrated the intelligence - or, possibly even more important - conscientiousness that that would require.
Instead, you display a consistent disrespect for me and my time by asking questions which I have already responded to. If you find my past responses to be inadequate, then please acknowledge that you have read my response and let me know what's not convincing you. Of course, that would require you reading past posts, something you've promised not to do. And you wonder why I call you stupid?
Similarly, your latest comments on the alleged police brutality show a complete lack of attention or comprehension of what I've written on the subject.
>>>You blatantly believe that the Canadian police using force on the Chilean players was exaggerated in the Chilean media
"Blatantly"??? I don't see how you could even construe that to be my opinion. My position has consistently been that accusations of unjustified force were unfounded, and came too soon. I never, ever, said that the Chilean media was exaggerating the use of force by the Toronto police. The media are just reporting the testimonies that are surfacing. Can you grasp the distinction? Are you getting a headache?
>>>You weren't there either.
Dude, I've been extremely careful to point out that it's UNCLEAR. Yes, extremely forceful measures were taken, and there's a damn good possibility that it was excessive. There's also a possibility - that I have NEVER denied - that the Toronto police were being racist.
You and many others are satisfied to look at a pair of photographs and hear some testimonies, and come to a definitive conclusion. My position is that such assuredness is ridiculous, especially coming from a head of state.
In addition to being ridiculous, it's extremely unwise to call anybody racist, or unjustified in keeping the peace, unless you can really back it up.
What if your claims about the Toronto police force turn out to be wrong? What if next year the same thing happens to the British team?
By making unsubstantiated claims that have a fair chance of being proven wrong, you end up doing more harm than help to the people you are supposedly trying to protect. It's like the boy who cried wolf, weón.
If you really cared about racism, or whether or not the force was justified, you would approach this topic a lot more carefully, advocating the development of a real case, investigate the officers' records, take them to court for christs sake!
What I suspect - and I hope you can prove me wrong, but I doubt it - is that most of you are just getting off on this. The shock that many Chileans received when this tragic even happened was rough. Many people responded emotionally. Hurling accusations of "racism" and "abuse" is a form of temporary catharsis (and lots of pent up issues from racism, classism, dictatorship, etc, that I discussed above).
Point is, the trigger-happiness of your president shows a profound disingenuousness. She is leveraging the emotions of the people to gain more popularity (which she needs). If she were to demand an investigation, but not make direct accusations, it obviously wouldn't have maximum effect. In maximizing the effect, she has helped trash the reputation of an entire police department. By doing so without proof of unjust force, she herself was unjustified.
Yes, I am welcome in Chile, as is this blog welcome by many Chileans here and abroad who find it to be valuable piece of the ongoing conversation about "Chile."
And while your objections are predictable and unoriginal, they represent a small minority of the overall feedback I have received.
Ok man, sorry.
Just going around the internet looking for discussions on this topic, I happened to find your blog, and reading your negative comments here made me assume that's all you write. But I realize I was wrong now that I've read some of your other posts.
There's my apology, you win, lol. You do write some good stuff in other posts, so keep it up.
>>>Im sure they have lots of problems at home and have their own share of hypocrisy at home.
I'm not denying this, I'm just saying that it's often done very artlessly in Chile. I guess to a certain extent that's what pisses me off, it's so obvious. I know that the United States has extreme development and racism problems, and it's hard to know where to begin when exposing cultural and political hypocrisy. What makes it palatable is that it's like solving a puzzle and I think the intellectual challenge helps to assuage some of the reptilian anger that would otherwise hijack the brain. Plenty of exceptions, sore-thumb being Bush, whose hypocrisy is so dumb and obvious that Bush-bashing has long since become boring and it's a definite conversation killer for me. What makes the similar pursuit of 'exposing the obvious' so fun in Chile is because it's still all so new to me. Could be that everyone here is bored with it as well and I'm that annoying liberal who doesn't refuse to stop making cliché anti-Bush jokes. However, I have the feeling that there's not as much room for dissent, or it's not as vocal, because of duopolistic press, Catholic controlled TV and a serious repression of the poor and women's rights, that's all done so obviously, but there's less protest. So being part of that protest gives me a bigger piece of the pie than I'd get in the US, for example. I'll be the first to admit its facile, exploitative approach to virgin bitching territory, and there's plenty of room for improvement in terms of grabbing a bigger audience.
>>>There's my apology, you win, lol.
I always win. Thank you, though, for being conscientious. I hope you continue to enjoy reading this blog. Feel free to comment, although now you know why I permit "Anonymous" commenting.
>>>>>> What if next year the same thing happens to the British team?
my God, if the English, Scots and Welsh ever got together with a football team, there really would be a riot. A joint British team is asking for trouble jeje...
joking aside, i can say with the absolute certainty (although i can't be absolutely certain, of course) that if it were the England under-20 team, they would have got exactly the same treatment. And instead of accusing the Canadian police of racism (many of England's best young players are black, remember), the English press would be slamming the England team, calling them over-paid, under-educated louts who got what was coming to them.
They'd be debates in the Commons as to how to get rid of the attitude prevalent in English society to fight and cause trouble. The team would go home in complete shame, and most likely get abused at the airport.
If it were the proper, grown up England team, the police wouldn't react in such a manner. I doubt very much that the police would have given the proper Chilean team much hassle either. Perhaps the police thought that these kids needed to learn a lesson. The English press would have agreed. Not so, the Chilean press which made martyrs out of the sub-20.
The whole thing seems all a bit childish to me: the petulant reaction by the Chilean kids to losing (whatever the circumstances), the possible over-reaction by the Canadian police and the pathetic indignation of senior Chilean politicians and many Chileans who seem to condone being a bad loser.
Of course, i know what losing is like. I know what losing to Argentina is like. It hurts. It really fucking hurts. I also know from personal experience that behaving like a spoilt kid to losing isn't the way to go, no matter how unjustly (Sol Campbell's disallowed goal in 1998 was so a goal and Beckham should never have been sent off but i possibly shouldn't have broken the telly). Perhaps the Chilean kids have learnt a valuable lesson? Or perhaps the press and politicians have simply shown them that being a bad loser is acceptable.
Tom, for some reason your latest comment got lost in the shuffle and I just published it now, it appears incongruous in the midst of a fight that continued to simmer, although down (luckily, I was pretty much through with Witch). Thanks for the update, it's good to have the Canadian perspective. I hadn't heard that about the proposed street march, I'm sure that had promised to be fun. Oh well.
Hey, I do live in Canada and last night I heard the report on the news about the investigation. Apparently one of the players punch a police officer on the face and as expected, he reacted according to the situation. I think that is a standard procedure around here and anywere else . I am from Santiago and live in western Canada for over 10 years. I would never go back.
I applaud on how you keep mining this "lowbrow" Chilean passive agressive psyche. You always have an unintentional peon to warm the crowds for you. ;)
One a serious note, when most Chileans immigrate to countries like the US or Canada they are shocked to learn they will not likely to be legally classified as "White/European" and never fully accepted as part of mainstream society solely because of that person's indegenous phenotype identifies them as not being white. Whereas in Chile it's the opposite, just having distant European ancestors elevated them.
Same thing goes for those toffee-skinned Brazilians, and Colombians, who are labeled "moreno/a" or "mulatto/a" in their homeland, but are categorized as "black" in North America.
However they have it harder since Afro-Latinos are more likely to face discrimination from different groups. African Americans say they are not being proud of their "blackness", while white people discrimate them like they were AA and light-skin Latinos typically eschew them.
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