Tomás Dinges and Pato Apoligism
Last week Tomás crawled back up onto the ring in an attempted comeback to my manufactured defeat of him. I'll be honest, you initially couldn't really have called my fake lucha libre fight a victory, because it was entirely in my own head. Tomás would have done well to keep quiet. Yet based on the weakness of his parry, Victory is blatantly mine.
But its not good TV to repeatedly hit someone when he's down, so I'll try deal with Tomás as briefly and humanely as possible (lest I get dis-invited to his Goodbye Party), summarize his arguments, sweep them off the table, then get down to the crux of the issue.
So as any journalism student could tell you, you place the most important points of your story is at the beginning. Tomás dutifully starts out by henpecking my errors of Capitalization. He's right. It's Her Majesty with a capital H. Well done. Next, Tomás attacks semantics.
After I write:
Yet I would caution both Tomás and Pato to be very, very careful when recommending Exit as a solution to anybody unhappy with some or all aspects of Chile.
...Tomás runs for the online definition of Exile.
Tomás continues to disappoint as his tone shifts from grammar-bitch to school-yard thug (first henpecking my use of capitalization then defending his own 'go suck cock' statement) and culminates in an exposition of personal, suppressed resentment over something that happened offline about 18 months ago, as Tomás describes it: the "Mayo incident". Indeed, Tomás devotes several paragraphs to my perceived bad manners implicitly boasting that he is a Better Person but also unwittingly showing me to be a Better Blogger.
Why? Because I stay on topic.
Two points:
1. If you don't like Chile, leave Chile.
2. You are not constructive, you do nothing but "shit on Chileans"
On both these angry (and I contend erroneous) attitudes and accusations thrust against me, Tomás has shown himself to be an occasional Pato Apologist.
On the first point, Tomás provides fascinating examples and links of real men getting exiled, in what might be construed as an implication that I could could never ever face that level of severity as Chileans faced during the dictatorship, and so therefore my criticisms of Chile are less valid. I mean, I don't that Tomas is saying that. The truth is that it's hard to figure out exactly what Tomás is saying. Because my question remains unanswered:
Why should I leave Chile just because I don't like certain aspects of it? (phrased earlier as 'what's the attitude behind like it or leave it?')
The closest Tomás gets to answering this question is by saying that my writing makes him sick. But by his concomitant reiteration of his 'go suck cock' statement as well as his heavy reliance upon personal anecdotes, we're left with the impression that Tomás is personally hurt by my harsh criticisms of Chile, both online and offline.
Sorry dude. I never claimed to be a nice guy. But fwiw, I sometimes feel bad when I make other people feel bad, and if there's anything I can do...
Still, you lose the argument. You fail to provide a strong defense for your "like it or leave it" attitude. Again, I'm sorry.
Point Number 2: Tomás says, "Bitching is tiresome and don’t shit on Chileans."
A. "Bitching is tiresome." Well, all I can say is that I bitch more than Tomás does and I have more readers. I hate to toot my own horn but this is important to the argument: I've received numerous comments and emails from Chileans in Santiago and around the world who love this blog, because my writing resonates with them: I don't whitewash Chile, I point out problems that need fixing. I'm sure Tomás is finding his own readers, and I congratulate him, but just because "bitching is tiresome" to Tomás, doesn't mean I'll stop.
And, hey, if you don't like the blog, don't read it, don't make comments on it! But you continue to read and comment on my blog: I continue to live in Chile!
B. "Don't shit on Chileans." In all fairness, Tomás has acknowledged that my criticism of Chile is at times constructive. But, he contends, not all the time. And with this "don't shit on Chileans" statement, it appears he's trying to say that at times my criticisms of Chile and the things that some Chileans do is not constructive.
But I contend that online I have always been constructive. Neither Pato nor Tomás nor anyone has been able or willing to prove me wrong. I've repeatedly extended an invitation to Pato: find posts where I criticize Chile in an unconstructive way, and point them out to me. Pato has remained silent. His Apologist has also, as I just said, resorted to personal anecdotes. My blog remains squeeky clean.
But if you want to get personal, let's go there. I have a personal anecdote that comes straight from the trenches: in line paying a bill at Telefónica, where I started in railing on Telefónica and how fucked up Chile is that it let's a company like Telefónica get away with murder. I soon had an audience of three Chileans who agreed with me completely, sharing their feelings about how corrupt their government is and how bad the company's business practices are. Same place, different time, I was bitching to the teller about how dysfunctional Telefónica was for not allowing me to make payments online. In fact, I unloaded a tirade (volume not moderated) on how fucked it is that the biggest telecom in Chile could be so BAD.
Someone in line tapped me on the shoulder and I turned back, expecting the worst. But he said, with complete sincerity: "Thank You. It's good to have foreigners come and criticize the bad things about Chile."
Yo, he's RIGHT. I'd venture to say that Chileans who are used to being fucked over all their lives by corrupt corporations get a sense of CATHARSIS by seeing someone from the Outside come in and VALIDATE their angst and frustration over exploitative, abusive and dysfunctional systems.
That's not Chileans sucking Gringo dick, nor is it me being some Saintly latinamericanist Harbinger of Hope. What it IS is me bitching in public and people saying, yeah! He's right!
That's not tiresome, that's healthy...bitch ;-)
But its not good TV to repeatedly hit someone when he's down, so I'll try deal with Tomás as briefly and humanely as possible (lest I get dis-invited to his Goodbye Party), summarize his arguments, sweep them off the table, then get down to the crux of the issue.
So as any journalism student could tell you, you place the most important points of your story is at the beginning. Tomás dutifully starts out by henpecking my errors of Capitalization. He's right. It's Her Majesty with a capital H. Well done. Next, Tomás attacks semantics.
After I write:
Yet I would caution both Tomás and Pato to be very, very careful when recommending Exit as a solution to anybody unhappy with some or all aspects of Chile.
...Tomás runs for the online definition of Exile.
Tomás continues to disappoint as his tone shifts from grammar-bitch to school-yard thug (first henpecking my use of capitalization then defending his own 'go suck cock' statement) and culminates in an exposition of personal, suppressed resentment over something that happened offline about 18 months ago, as Tomás describes it: the "Mayo incident". Indeed, Tomás devotes several paragraphs to my perceived bad manners implicitly boasting that he is a Better Person but also unwittingly showing me to be a Better Blogger.
Why? Because I stay on topic.
Two points:
1. If you don't like Chile, leave Chile.
2. You are not constructive, you do nothing but "shit on Chileans"
On both these angry (and I contend erroneous) attitudes and accusations thrust against me, Tomás has shown himself to be an occasional Pato Apologist.
On the first point, Tomás provides fascinating examples and links of real men getting exiled, in what might be construed as an implication that I could could never ever face that level of severity as Chileans faced during the dictatorship, and so therefore my criticisms of Chile are less valid. I mean, I don't that Tomas is saying that. The truth is that it's hard to figure out exactly what Tomás is saying. Because my question remains unanswered:
Why should I leave Chile just because I don't like certain aspects of it? (phrased earlier as 'what's the attitude behind like it or leave it?')
The closest Tomás gets to answering this question is by saying that my writing makes him sick. But by his concomitant reiteration of his 'go suck cock' statement as well as his heavy reliance upon personal anecdotes, we're left with the impression that Tomás is personally hurt by my harsh criticisms of Chile, both online and offline.
Sorry dude. I never claimed to be a nice guy. But fwiw, I sometimes feel bad when I make other people feel bad, and if there's anything I can do...
Still, you lose the argument. You fail to provide a strong defense for your "like it or leave it" attitude. Again, I'm sorry.
Point Number 2: Tomás says, "Bitching is tiresome and don’t shit on Chileans."
A. "Bitching is tiresome." Well, all I can say is that I bitch more than Tomás does and I have more readers. I hate to toot my own horn but this is important to the argument: I've received numerous comments and emails from Chileans in Santiago and around the world who love this blog, because my writing resonates with them: I don't whitewash Chile, I point out problems that need fixing. I'm sure Tomás is finding his own readers, and I congratulate him, but just because "bitching is tiresome" to Tomás, doesn't mean I'll stop.
And, hey, if you don't like the blog, don't read it, don't make comments on it! But you continue to read and comment on my blog: I continue to live in Chile!
B. "Don't shit on Chileans." In all fairness, Tomás has acknowledged that my criticism of Chile is at times constructive. But, he contends, not all the time. And with this "don't shit on Chileans" statement, it appears he's trying to say that at times my criticisms of Chile and the things that some Chileans do is not constructive.
But I contend that online I have always been constructive. Neither Pato nor Tomás nor anyone has been able or willing to prove me wrong. I've repeatedly extended an invitation to Pato: find posts where I criticize Chile in an unconstructive way, and point them out to me. Pato has remained silent. His Apologist has also, as I just said, resorted to personal anecdotes. My blog remains squeeky clean.
But if you want to get personal, let's go there. I have a personal anecdote that comes straight from the trenches: in line paying a bill at Telefónica, where I started in railing on Telefónica and how fucked up Chile is that it let's a company like Telefónica get away with murder. I soon had an audience of three Chileans who agreed with me completely, sharing their feelings about how corrupt their government is and how bad the company's business practices are. Same place, different time, I was bitching to the teller about how dysfunctional Telefónica was for not allowing me to make payments online. In fact, I unloaded a tirade (volume not moderated) on how fucked it is that the biggest telecom in Chile could be so BAD.
Someone in line tapped me on the shoulder and I turned back, expecting the worst. But he said, with complete sincerity: "Thank You. It's good to have foreigners come and criticize the bad things about Chile."
Yo, he's RIGHT. I'd venture to say that Chileans who are used to being fucked over all their lives by corrupt corporations get a sense of CATHARSIS by seeing someone from the Outside come in and VALIDATE their angst and frustration over exploitative, abusive and dysfunctional systems.
That's not Chileans sucking Gringo dick, nor is it me being some Saintly latinamericanist Harbinger of Hope. What it IS is me bitching in public and people saying, yeah! He's right!
That's not tiresome, that's healthy...bitch ;-)
posted by Chileno @ 3:06 PM
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17 Comments:
healthy... *******EXACTLY!*******
Agreed. It is very stupid for Tomas and Pato to be mad at your criticisms, even if they WEREN'T constructive, and I do think are, albeit with an (understandable & entertaining) indignant flair.
Sometimes we all need foreigners to point out the problems in our own countries. I have learned a lot more about the problems in my own (US) after seeing it through the eyes of a new arrival (my Chilean wife).
People with intimate experience in another system are an invaluable resource and it is ignorant to try to discredit them based on their apparent naivete, it may not make you feel good to hear their criticisms but I'm sorry, the way things appear to be to an unindoctrinated person is often more insightful than someone who thinks they have seen every facet of a situation all of their life, yet most likely has an inescapable bias to one side.
Yes, there are some things that are vastly superior in Chile than in the US. The medical system is the primary one, as I have discovered very clearly recently. But fortunately you haven't been sick enough to experience that perhaps chileno.
And it is more important to highlight problems than positives, there are always enough greedy people with money to promote and exaggerate the good things while glossing over the bad.
Nobody likes to hear the faults of their home but if we all just went searching for the perfect country instead of staying and trying to raise awareness about the problems where we are, well... we'd all be forever traveling and nothing would improve.
WOW again!! no personal blows this time?? no insults??
Chileno, you are getting soft.
Usually you comment on my family, political views or about the fact that my gf writes my comments... which is all BS coming from your creative mind (like your fake lucha libre)...but then again you are teaching us all Chileans how to have "civilized" exchange of ideas.
To your friend "Faithful Lurker", I can only say that his generalizations of Asian people are just pitiful. I don't understand why he keeps talking about races.
Chileno, please resume your name-calling ways
Although I for one appreciate all of the perspective that you bring to the Chilean culture and the injustices that come with it, I think that given the title of your blog , “Life in Santiago”, I was hoping to have a more balanced opinion about “your” life in Santiago -- not just the bad and the ugly, but the good too. But unfortunately so far all I've seen is the bad. I'm not fooled, because I do know first hand that there is good.
If you go out with the attitude of “Who's going to screw me today?” then your going to get screwed. That kinda crap happens anywhere, to everyone; its not just a “Chile” thing. But unfortunately in this case, “Misery DOES Loves Company”, because you have the “power to post” and and you do with appreciated frequency.
What's unfortunate is that you don't know the half of it. You are essentially the “upper class” citizen bitching about how the “lower class” is being treated by your very own class mates. If you're not willing to know what true injustice is by actually walking in their shoes, then you shouldn't pretend to be the voice of the proletariate. Sure, you've braved the so called “Slums” of Puente Alto and Cerro Navia, but can you really represent the people of those areas? Look at all the stuff they have to bitch about. I'll guarantee that you'll fine more good, hard working happy people in those areas that you will any place else.
Instead of finding an apartment in La Dehesa or some other comfortable model US neighborhood, go find a pension in say, Lo Espejo or La Victoria. Then by all means bitch up a storm. I think it'd be entertaining to read about your adventures of a “gringo” living the hi-life in one of those places. Go ahead, try it out, see how the “common man” lives. But don't take your “American ruler” because what you'll find will not measure up. If you do this, I'll bet you'll find yourself laughing more and bitching less.
Take the poor employee of Telefonica that you verbally abused about things that (s)he has no chance in hell of changing. I'm sure that she went straight home that night to tell her family how she's been lead out of the darkness and finally sees the light and all thanks to the rantings and abuses of some accented stranger from the north. In reality the poor employee is in no place to join your revolution, especially when the money earned feeds mouths, pays bus fares and tries to stay in the good graces of the employer who has no qualms about replacing the employee at the drop of a hat with someone willing to work for less.
I hope that nobody is suggesting that you leave Chile based on how downtrodden and unfairly you have been treated. What of the millions of Chileans that don't have a choice to leave? They are resigned to their fate and make the best of it. You however are one of the few residents of Chile that have the capability and means to leave. If you're miserable then Chile's just not good for you. Go to where you're happy, after all thats whats really important. But if you are happy living there, then stay, and tell us why you're happy (at least occasionally). Otherwise don't torture yourself with things that take years to change. But one day when all the “kinks” are worked out, all thats going to be left are more “kinks” in their place. What are you left with? A life spent of only complaints rather than taking things for what they are, and expressing both the good and the bad of your situation.
My point is that, yes, there are a lot of crazy things that go on in Chile, and when you try to hold Santiago up to the light with cities like San Francisco there are going to be many many shortcomings. Now by no means should anyone believe that to the north there lies an emerald city (United States) where all is beautiful grassy and without problems, because this just not the case. The problems that do exist are different and should be confronted on the same level at which you see them, for example don't look at Chilean problems in an American context and then judge them or don't take your American luxuries and put them in a Chilean context and bitch that they're not available. I know first hand that there are many positive and beautiful things that make up the country of Chile and if you've found them, share them.
m l: well put :-)
Pato:
>>>Usually you comment on my family, political views or about the fact that my gf writes my comments
1. I've never commented on your family. That was you.
2. Since when was discussing political views a bad thing?
3. I KNEW IT! You're girlfriend writes your comments for you! Ha! (Just kiddin')
Lastly, a question Pato: have you been looking through my archives? Have you found a post that is purely negative without being constructively critical? If so, please point it out and explain why it is not constructively critical. I have asked you about 5 times now, and you remain silent on the issue. Case closed? Or what?
Vinko:
I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts in a constructive way (Pato, pay attention).
To be fair, though, I will be pointing out some inaccuracies and assumptions you've made about me.
>>>I was hoping to have a more balanced opinion about “your” life in Santiago -- not just the bad and the ugly, but the good too. But unfortunately so far all I've seen is the bad.
Vinko, you need to read more. Both recent posts and archived posts on this blog have what can be objectively be described as descriptions of "positive" encounters with Chile. Even Pato and Tomás have acknowledged this. Please take a minute to go back and read them.
>>>If you go out with the attitude of “Who's going to screw me today?”
I don't do that. When shit goes wrong I'm honestly surprised. Less surprised as time goes by, and I know that it makes less sense to apply North American standards to the way things work here. But why would I apply North American standards in the beginning? Is it a spoiled North American projecting his values on a poor country, surprised that the whole world isn't like home? Short answer: No.
I've been to 20-25 countries in my life and I've seen incredible differences in each one. Chile does and EXCEPTIONAL job of trying to be like North America.
From fashion to music to corporations to you-name-it, Chile has been buying a North American narrative. Anybody with ANY money has studied in the United States, Chile's economy was designed by North Americans, ETC, ETC, ETC. Ever read about a guy named Pinochet?
Point being, what pisses me off is the ILLUSION that Chile is developed and North American. I ask, why even HAVE a customer service dept if it doesn't work?
I also explore the causes of institutional dysfunctionalism in Chile. Could it have something to do with the fact that this small country was brutally and psychologically oppressed for 17 years? That people have very little faith in public institutions because they lived under the rule of a gangster for two decades? That people behave abusively toward eachother because Santiago is one of the world's most DEPRESSED cities? Why is it so depressed? What could possibly be causing this? Is it because my blog hurts its feelings so much?
Is there a fleeting chance that Chile still has a LITTLE bit of recovering to do?
Or what about poverty, credit card loan sharks inflating a 'middle class'. Sometimes I feel if all I did was explore these 'negative' issues I could blog for a hundred years and not be done. But it would be constructive, as Pato has proven by his silence.
What I hope to do through my criticism is what anyone in the media working in good faith would hope to do: positively change policy for the better good of human kind.
Verbally abusing a teller at Telefonica does not fall into that category. But am I the asshole who comes along like a buzzkill while everyone was having such a fucking dandy time? Who put that teller there on the front lines with a wage of $500 or less a month in one of Latin America's most expensive cities.
I accept your criticism of my character and I do my best not to lose it, but I've found Telefónica's policies to be exceptionally abusive to their customers, and obviously their employees who get the brunt of their customers' actions for very little pay.
>>>If you're miserable then Chile's just not good for you.
This is a narrative that Tomás has been advancing. Perhaps it comes out from my blog, too, but it's also something that Tomás has worked hard to reaffirm in his writings. It's not accurate. Yes, bad things happen, and some days are worse than others, but I'm far from miserable. Tomás and I were coincidentally neighbors in a lower-middle class/poor, high-crime neighborhood with higher rent because a metro reaches it. Two men shot each other underneath my balcony. I was not happy with that apt. I moved to the mountains, just got internet and I am MUCH happier! :-)
>>>Sure, you've braved the so called “Slums” of Puente Alto and Cerro Navia, but can you really represent the people of those areas?
When did I claim to represent these people?
>>>I'll guarantee that you'll fine more good, hard working happy people in those areas that you will any place else.
What makes you so sure? That statement sounds pretty cliché. Do you know the half that I don't know? Where does your expertise on Chile come from?
I apologize; you didn't comment on my family, it was FL. You just called me a dumbass; I thought it was the other way around.
Tell me chileno, what are my political views?
My gf thinks that the fact that I care about what this blog says about Chile is kinda funny. She wouldn't help me with these postings even if asked her to.
Chileno, I am not going to go back and read all your postings…I don’t want to. I’ve just read some of the latest ones in which you say Chile sucks, Carabineros are terrible, people are rude and inefficient, there is no good and clean place to eat (it’s one or the other), and all of us Chileans have some kind of psychological condition which make us behave this or that way, bla bla bla bla…which again is BS compadrito, there is nothing constructive about it.
I could say similar things about LA based on similar experiences I’ve had here but I’ve had some pretty cool times too, so I don’t fell the need to bitch so much.
>>>Vinko, you need to read more. Both recent posts and archived posts on this blog have what can be objectively be described as descriptions of "positive" encounters with Chile. Even Pato and Tomás have acknowledged this. Please take a minute to go back and read them.
This is true and I do apologizes. After I posted I did go back and read a few post from 2006 having remembered that there were some post that weren't as cynical as the ones of late (save a few). I especially like the ones circa February 11, 2006, April 23, 2006 and July 29, 2006 (Amarosa). Now this is the Chile I know! In fact, your post about “Mothers and Daughters”, you mention “I fell in love as well. But, typical, I didn't get her digits.” I went the other way, got the digits and I'm totally happy I did.
>>>I don't do that. When shit goes wrong I'm honestly surprised. Less surprised as time goes by, and I know that it makes less sense to apply North American standards to the way things work here. But why would I apply North American standards in the beginning? Is it a spoiled North American projecting his values on a poor country, surprised that the whole world isn't like home? Short answer: No.
This is great! However, the problem that seems to be the norm is that as “babies of the golden cradle“ (I'm generalizing here as I don't presume to know how you were raised.) we have been brought up with an elitist attitude that can sometimes bite us in the ass as adults if we're not careful. Americans travel all over the world and never really know the places we visit. Many times the only thing we bring back with us are the measurements we've gathered with our “American ruler” which allows us to pat each other on the back and congratulate ourselves that we are in fact still “the greatest”. I've seen it happen many times before, hell I've even been the victim of it time and again. If this isn't happening to you, then I believe you, but just be aware.
>>>I've been to 20-25 countries in my life and I've seen incredible differences in each one. Chile does and EXCEPTIONAL job of trying to be like North America.
>>>From fashion to music to corporations to you-name-it, Chile has been buying a North American narrative. Anybody with ANY money has studied in the United States, Chile's economy was designed by North Americans, ETC, ETC, ETC. Ever read about a guy named Pinochet?
Oh yea, I know Pinochet. I've meet people who have loved him and people who have hated him and have heard compelling arguments from both sides. The one thing I did learn was to NEVER pretend to know what really happened, especially in the house of a retired college professor (Chilean). Did I feel stupid after that conversation (see: elitist American description above). :)
>>>Point being, what pisses me off is the ILLUSION that Chile is developed and North American. I ask, why even HAVE a customer service dept if it doesn't work?
I completely agree.
>>>I also explore the causes of institutional dysfunctionalism in Chile. Could it have something to do with the fact that this small country was brutally and psychologically oppressed for 17 years? That people have very little faith in public institutions because they lived under the rule of a gangster for two decades? That people behave abusively toward eachother because Santiago is one of the world's most DEPRESSED cities? Why is it so depressed? What could possibly be causing this? Is it because my blog hurts its feelings so much?
Depressed? I'd like to see the facts on that. I don't know anyone in Chile who has ever had a psychological evaluation and I doubt that a valid conclusion can be gathered over the phone either. Anyway with the crazy tariffs on local phone calls I don't know many who would even consent to survey. Besides, ask me, and half the time I'll tell you that I am depressed about something or other.
>>>Is there a fleeting chance that Chile still has a LITTLE bit of recovering to do?
I do agree with this. Chileans DO need to recover, but who can recover when the government et al. keep reviving the issues. Its not an excuse anymore he (Pinochet) is gone, nothing is going to change the past. Get over it and get on with it.
>>>Or what about poverty, credit card loan sharks inflating a 'middle class'. Sometimes I feel if all I did was explore these 'negative' issues I could blog for a hundred years and not be done. But it would be constructive, as Pato has proven by his silence.
>>>What I hope to do through my criticism is what anyone in the media working in good faith would hope to do: positively change policy for the better good of human kind.
I can appreciate this, keep up the good work.
>>>Verbally abusing a teller at Telefonica does not fall into that category. But am I the asshole who comes along like a buzzkill while everyone was having such a fucking dandy time? Who put that teller there on the front lines with a wage of $500 or less a month in one of Latin America's most expensive cities.
This is true, but this is life. Like I said, the teller usually doesn't have any other option. The only thing that verbally abusing a teller is doing is not only making the the gap bigger between whats shes earns and what she deserves but perpetuates a very “gringo” traits of superiority to the “working class”. I would hope that my countrymen would demonstrate the positive attributes of their upbringing rather than cultivate the negative stereotypes that the world generally has about North Americans. As Eric Hoffer said, “Kindness can become its own motive. We are made kind by being kind.”
>>>I accept your criticism of my character and I do my best not to lose it, but I've found Telefónica's policies to be exceptionally abusive to their customers, and obviously their employees who get the brunt of their customers' actions for very little pay.
>>>This is a narrative that Tomás has been advancing. Perhaps it comes out from my blog, too, but it's also something that Tomás has worked hard to reaffirm in his writings. It's not accurate. Yes, bad things happen, and some days are worse than others, but I'm far from miserable. Tomás and I were coincidentally neighbors in a lower-middle class/poor, high-crime neighborhood with higher rent because a metro reaches it. Two men shot each other underneath my balcony. I was not happy with that apt. I moved to the mountains, just got internet and I am MUCH happier! :-)
Good, I didn't think you were miserable. Disaffected maybe? But leaving definitely isn't the answer. :)
>>>When did I claim to represent these people?
Jumped to soon on this too. As far as I've seen you've never claimed to represent the people, but you were, at least for a moment, the voice for 4 men in a Telefonica line when you validated “their angst and frustration over exploitative, abusive and dysfunctional systems.” But little did they know, that you provided them no service that day, rather also validating what I'm sure they believed to be typical “American” behavior. It's a damn shame that the shitty parts of America have permeated and poisoned practically the entire world. What the world perceives to be “American” and what IS “American” is so far gone its ridiculous. The only representatives to the world we have is our Government our movies and our world travelers. The first two are a mutated version of reality that nobody should be proud off and for the most part nobody can control, but the third is you and me which we can control and we should be proud off.
>>>What makes you so sure? That statement sounds pretty cliché. Do you know the half that I don't know? Where does your expertise on Chile come from?
Yes, now that I read it again it does sound cliché. However, I do know to an extent the half that you don't. Everyone I know and love lives in these areas. I myself have never lived anywhere above say... Avenida Matta. I was married in the comuna de Lo Espejo and have always ridden the bus. Been assaulted by drunks, been the victim on an attempted mugging (funny story) and to tell you the truth, loved every minute of it.
Thanks for the exchange. I'll continue to read and post.
>>>My gf thinks that the fact that I care about what this blog says about Chile is kinda funny.
I think I'm with your gf on this one. You seem to enjoy seeing your name online, even in a negative context or, perhaps, ESPECIALLY in a negative context because it gives you a chance to get worked up and then slam down everything you've got. Let's hope for her sake she keeps her mouth shut when you make a fool of yourself in other contexts.
Unfortunately, when you strut your stuff on this blog it usually entails your getting indignant and throwing out erroneous statements or half-truths. Nothing really valuable to the immediate or longterm discussion. It shows that what I write upsets you, but that you are unable to respond to my fair questions that I pose to you or really go back and take a fair sampling of what this blog is about and confront me with it in a logical, fair way. Other people have done that and they've come up with real criticisms that have changed the way I see things, helped me grow, and I have thanked them for their constructive criticism.
That's not the Pato way.
Anyway, I'm happy that you continue to read this blog, but keep in mind that when I use your name I often do so without the intention of baiting you, but rather to use you as a symbol of something much greater. To me, the word "Pato" now captures the essence of low-brow nationalism and inability to engage in critical, thoughtful discussion in the context of Chile. People who can't control their rabid emotional outbursts when I write about societal problems facing the country that this blog happens to center around are, imho, enemies of progress.
You've given me a wonderful personification of the worst of Chile, a plagued rat to hold up to the light, and thanks to all your contributions up to now I'm pretty much done with you.
That said, it's a free country. So feel free to continue commenting no matter what your girlfriend says.
Pato
One) I did not generalize, was talking about how many Asians and Latin Americans express "colorism" and self-hatred. You can't deny the exploitation that happened and it's long term effects. Did you take World History 101? Why is that most Asian girls only date white guys? Again it's being fetishsied by westerners and Asian not really liking themselves and wanting to have "white looking" babies just like many dark skin Latinas. You should read some of the books written on the subject.
Two) Surprised you even found a girlfriend in the US since most about 90% of Chilenos are NOT circumcisied, while men in the United States are. Most American girls find uncut to be an anomaly. In Chile it's the opposite; Circumcision is done by few demographic such as, the Jews, Muslims and parts of the upper class who like to distinguish themselves. Did not surprise me when a few Santiaguinas told me about their new found love for "cut" men after being intimate with one. ;)
Three) Never meet Mr. Will in person, ran into his blog while surfing the net one evening. Enjoyed his tongue-and-cheek humor. Social change does not happen by being indiferent, things don't get taken care until someone has the guts to call attention to it. Someone patted him in the back for solidifing the their woes. Due to the Chilean idiosyncrasy of validating everything foreign, people pay more attention if a "americano" calls it out. That's the sad truth.
Four) You assumed I am male. Anyone who can read between the lines can tell I am a young girl. However your second-rate English does not let you comprehend "the writing on the wall".
Five) You still don't get it do you. At least I can live with the fact that Will is able to utilize and exploit all of your antisocial comments for the sake of laughs. He did say we needed a court jester.
This whole "Tomas and Pato versus you" makes no sense. Both may be Chilean but that is where the similarities end. As much as I enjoy Tomas' (or is it Thomas) witty writting and musings there is something off. Can't understand the "Latte Liberal" ethos of Tomas. Advocating justice for those who have been left behind, yet the lifestyle is akin to all the moneyed yuppie crowd. When did skiing at the Portillo Ski Resort, let along skiing with Portillo's owner, Henry Purcell become common? The average working class Chilean living in a crime ridden shanty town of Santiago does not get to experience life's leisures. If that is not milking ones' families connections, then what is? =) Purcell is not the only one who thinks Tomas is more American than Chilean, the masses also see him as a foreigner, from the Mapuche woman he played footsie with in the train, to the barber who ruined his hair on purpose. Why be ashamed of your ogliarchic ancestors? It is more genuine when one is comfortable with the past. The descendants of the southern planter class who owned slaves do not go out of their way to be friendly with black folk. Once Thomas starts attending the Graduate School of Journalism at Columbia he won't have to be so awkwardly apologetic or show "high status discomfort " for being priviledged within the rarified walls of the venerable institution. ;)
There - I've caught up - having read ALL of your posts. Something that I still suggest that your antagonist 'Pato' should do as well.
Regards to you and your lovely lady ... hopefully both of you breathing fresher air in your new location. Suerte!
I've gotta say that I like your blog better when you are actually talking about life in Chile--even if you're hatin' on it--than when you are engaging in overly melodramatic verbal duels.
Yeah, you're a bit more openly critical of Chile than maybe I'd be if I lived there, but I have a feeling that you'd be doing that wherever you're living. I think perhaps that's just the way you look at things, for better or worse
Now, start talking about Chile again! No matter what you say, I love the place (of course, I have only visited ... I'm sure I missed out on some of the annoyances available to permanent residents.)
Freedom of Speach . . . Baby!
Will,
A reply. The most important point which I care not to discuss anymore, is the following:
I start by quoting your comment.
"Why should I leave Chile just because I don't like certain aspects of it? (phrased earlier as 'what's the attitude behind like it or leave it?')"
My response: Because I perceived some of your posts to be more effective attacks on the people of Chile and not the complex society that it is. That for me is not healthy criticism and spurious commentary.
Im preparing a list documenting the denigratory nature of your posts.
How I saw your commentary and why I suggested departure is with the following logic.
People who get angry with the way people are, and then rail against their characteristics on the internet while seeming unhappy or UNSATISFIED with the experience that these people offer, should seek happiness. If one is unhappy one should leave, and go to a place where one could be happy, like for example Argentina, a place where you have already declared multiple times your blind admiration.
Why don't you go after the people who represent the powerful?? the ones who run the country and make decisions. I suggest that you don't write directly about the powerful is because you probably don't run into the powerful on your way to buy coffee or pay your bills..but you can extrapolate through the shitty services.
I believed that you were not critiquing Chile from a structural perspective, looking at why things are, but going after the people and their lack of criteria and pathos to be able to live in such a shitty society.
Furthermore, I perceived that all your posts which were in fact positive, framed those positive aspects with the bleak existence called Santiago..your glass seemed always half empty.
How many Chileans do you know, off hand? Are you an island surrounded by rough and mysterious waters? Have you swum in this water, beyond the contracting of services or consumption of cultural goods, ie. Telefonica, restaurants, taxis, concierges, movies?
So, my perspective, and opinion, goes the following. If I am wrong just write some more about me.
You used your shitty experiences to describe a shitty society made up of shitty people, all from the perspective of a gringo who after a year or more here, still walks the streets with his backpack on his chest, clutched in his hands, like a fearful visitor.
By chance are you planning a keyword indexed guidebook?
>>>If you're miserable then Chile's just not good for you.
This is a narrative that Tomás has been advancing. Perhaps it comes out from my blog, too, but it's also something that Tomás has worked hard to reaffirm in his writings. It's not accurate."
While your posts have indeed changed, and have become more "constructive," I had this impression, which is valid, or no?
I know this may be an incorrect question that may open me up to attack from your sharpening claws and acid wit, but its also a personal litmus test for people.
Im also curious.
Have you ever worked in the service industry in your life??
Vinko:
>>>Americans travel all over the world and never really know the places we visit. Many times the only thing we bring back with us are the measurements we've gathered with our “American ruler” which allows us to pat each other on the back and congratulate ourselves that we are in fact still “the greatest”.
Nope, I'm no back-patter. I'm usually just dumbstruck whenever I return to the States. I do take your comment to heart though, because it's a tendency worth watching out for.
>>>Pinochet. I've...heard compelling arguments from both sides.
I haven't been compelled by pro-Pinochet arguments. What were you compelled by?
>>>Depressed? I'd like to see the facts on that.
Me too. All I know is that a licensed Chilean psychologist (no, I'm not in therapy, just an acquaintance ;-) told me that 50% of Santiago residents have some form of clinical depression. I heard someone else mention that. It seems to be a commonly accepted and very plausible fact but I have yet to see hard evidence for myself.
>>>I do know to an extent the half that you don't.
You're probably right then. Although I feel I've *seen* (although not at the level of getting mugged or married) many sides from the slums to the cuicos, a old concentration camp in the north (and its prisoners) to island settlers on Chiloé etc, etc. Sounds like your experience in one part of Chile is very profound, and it's the part of Chile that mostly gets denied or glossed over. Vinko, KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT.
And speaking of 'talking', when you say,
>>>who can recover when the government et al. keep reviving the issues. Its not an excuse anymore he (Pinochet) is gone, nothing is going to change the past. Get over it and get on with it.
Without confronting and living with (not in) the past, a society can't be healthy. Yes, there's practically nothing anybody can do about past abuse except to talk about it. It's human nature, it's biblical, the nagging presence of lament, the persistence of Job...talking. It's Freud's trauarbeiten, working-through shit. Healing. Concertación no doubt has political motives and I wouldn't call "lip-service" trauarbeiten, but I do think it's wonderful that Bachelet visited Villa Grimaldi. She should make a tour of ALL Pinochet's ex-concentration camps. Make a NATIONAL MONUMENT out of EACH ONE. Talk incessantly about the victims and call out for people to share their own stories. National healing led by the Leader of the Nation. That's what I'd like to see.
I'll continue to read and post.
Good.
Tom:
You read my whole blog! I should make a prize for that or something. Yep, the air's incredible. Just got our first snowfall, went jogging in the national park in our back yard :-)
Lisa B:
Duly noted, thanks for the critique :-) Btw: What did you think of all the street dogs when you visited Chile? Pretty cute, huh? There's also lotsa pedigree. When I was looking for a new place in the affluent mountains near Santiago I got lost and knocked on this guy's door and he offered me one of his baby rottweilers pudgy little four-point paws SOOOOOOOO CUTE, but...no thanks. I'd prolly end up letting him loose on the wild streets of Santiago.
Tomás, Tomás, Tomás!
Your perception that I mercilessly attack humans, rather generalized societal ills, is valid.
Please do document the denigratory nature of your posts. I should probably pay you for the service.
In the meantime - stop! I can contextualize everything! ;-)
So okay, I don't claim to be a cool, collected or objective journalist when I rail against the institutions of Chile. I speak from the perspective of a consumer, and what a consumer sees. I don't summer with the owner of Telefónica, I stand in line with those who are victimized by his company.
In a society in which one of the most liberal newspapers (The Clinic) publishes an arguably racist joke about Bolivia taking out a loan to buy a TV (which was fucking funny, but still), I feel compelled to point out that Chile's pretty fucked up itself. If I expose my own blustering foolishness in the process, if I lock horns with the people around me, debate with them, yell at them, listen to them, have them listen to me, have them yell at me, and with any luck write about it, then isn't that more honest than coming down here with a University Grant to write an academic thesis on how the savages have been progressing? I've seen how opinionated 21-year old ivy leaguers who come down to Chile can get, imposing their values about the appropriate age someone should be before being married and having kids, for example, without a trace of self-consciousness. These are people who go on to become "experts" on Chile with full academic entitlement. That's fucking scary.
I, on the other hand, am just a loser with a blog. I don't claim to be entirely free of latinamericanist impulses, but I'm a lot more self conscious than those whose words are given the credibility of a University.
And yes, I worked in a coffee shop in the United States, just as you worked in the service industry in the United States.
But Tomás, have you worked in the service industry in CHILE? I haven't but honestly I was amazed when you showed SURPRISE when I told you that waiters at a particular restaurant in Santiago earned $10 a day, (and btw that is normal in practically all restaurants, bars, cafés in Chile. McDonald's pays $1 an hour. No tips).
Yo, after THREE YEARS IN CHILE YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT??? On a good day tips add up to $10. Normal shift for the restaurant I was talking about was usually 11 hours. So that's TWO BUCKS AN HOUR.
>>>By chance are you planning a keyword indexed guidebook?
Sure, that's a great idea! But it wouldn't certainly wouldn't be from the POV of an ignorant gringo. I know things about Chile that YOU don't know. Wichi-pirichi! Leru leru!
Back to the point about your ignorance of service-workers' wages in Chile (the defenseless fawns you valiantly protect from my claws) I know how much they earn, I'm sensitive to that, and I tip all the time, usually well over the 10% standard. Even when I buy YOU drinks because you've been unable to find work and obviously haven't deigned to put your noble service-worker past to the test in Chile. Sorry, where was I...oh yeah, I'm nice to waiters, some practically consider me their friend. I almost consider them people. (That last sentence was a bad joke). But seriously, I don't snap my fingers at waiters, although I HAVE SEEN a Chilean do that in Café de la Barra and the waiter doubled back and ATTENDED to him. Disgusting.
And getting back to your Mayonnaise 'incident', the only reason I shouted OYE! at the waiter was because I thought that was okay practice, because I'd seen OTHER CHILEANS DOING IT (my bad, because I was imitating POOR Chileans. Again, destroying your careless assumption that I'm some impetuous ARISTOCRATIC N. American swaggering through Chile and breaking everything on my way).
Anyway, I'd only been in Chile for a month, and despite having lived in Spain the culture is extremely different here. So if you'd be less disingenuous, Tomás, you'd finish the rest of the story where, upon your laughter and soft rebuke, a Chilean friend of yours nicely told me that it'd be better to say "OIGA" next time, and I listened, repeated the new conjugation, and told him, "okay, thanks for letting me know!" At this point, I'm even uncomfortable saying 'Oiga,' and choose disculpa instead.
>>>How many Chileans do you know, off hand?
Offhand I counted 37, but it's not complete, I can turn it into you in person if you'd like. It's a hard list to do because there are so many people I know and different degrees of "knowing". I imagine your point is that I only see Chileans as cardboard cutouts, there to serve me or piss me off in some capacity. Well, that's just not true.
Your other point might be like, well, if you really know people, why don't you write about that side of Chile too. Well I do that too, and I'll try to do more.
:-)
Awww can't afford to buy drinks? ;) Well once Tomas gets his graduate degree from Columbia, he can get a nice cu$hie job in publishing. Hopefully then, he won't forget his idialistic idialogies and put his money in his mouth. Nothing is ever resolved by just talking! (smiles)
Faithful lurker,
>>>> I did not generalize, was talking about how many Asians and Latin Americans express "colorism" and self-hatred. You can't deny the exploitation that happened and it's long term effects. Did you take World History 101? Why is that most Asian girls only date white guys? Again it's being fetishsied by westerners and Asian not really liking themselves and wanting to have "white looking" babies just like many dark skin Latinas. You should read some of the books written on the subject.
Two) Surprised you even found a girlfriend in the US since most about 90% of Chilenos are NOT circumcisied, while men in the United States are. Most American girls find uncut to be an anomaly. In Chile it's the opposite; Circumcision is done by few demographic such as, the Jews, Muslims and parts of the upper class who like to distinguish themselves. Did not surprise me when a few Santiaguinas told me about their new found love for "cut" men after being intimate with one. ;)<<<<
Where are you exactly? you need to stop reading and get out more, actually observe the scene with your own eyes. You see multitudes of variety and meshing of cultures within the US.
"most" Asian girls when used is a broad statement.
How can you even be surprised that the dude has a girlfriend?Please accept my apology for being so blunt, in a population of 300 million getting pu$$y isn't an impossible task. Doesn't matter if you had your penis circumcised or not. As of late, being circumcised in America isn't even a requirement, parents are choosing that option less and less. There are benefits on having foreskin which include added sensation and lubrication during penetration.
The above poster sounds like Pato.
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